5 ms·

I'm sure there's financial sense behind it too. Americans aren't just cowboys firing off their "freedom" guns at every major decision we come to.

toomuchtodo 10y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugged_individualism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugged_individualism Which works fine until you realize you don't operate in a vacuum, and your destiny is influenced by forces outside of your control.
- joslin01 10y ago
  What are you talking about? I said it probably makes financial sense too. I know the HN community abhors things like budgets getting in the way of universal healthcare & longer unemployment benefits, but there's a limit to what can be spent. Let me just say we should be spending a lot less money on war and a lot more money on welfare. Yet let me also say that the genesis of many ghettos was in a "war on poverty" that pushed for low-income housing. You're not being immoral by trying to evaluate each side and it certainly does not make me a rugged individualist.
  - toomuchtodo 10y ago
    I wasn't referring to you in particular, but Americans as a whole. The thought that if you work hard, you will always succeed. This is not the case, of course. I agree with your post.
    - joslin01 10y ago
      I just got done cleaning the dishes when I was like oh wait, maybe he wasn't referring to me? Sure enough. Sorry about that I understand now.
      - toomuchtodo 10y ago
        No worries at all. 'Tis the nature of text communication!
    - Annatar 10y ago
      We have several hundred million Americans which are all willing to work very hard, but there is not enough work for them, and what work there is, is not paid sufficiently to be able to live comfortably, or even normally. And here is where the entire concept of if you work hard, you will always succeed shatters: there are roughly 300 million Americans. The industry in which they could have (and many have) worked hard has systematically been outsourced, destroyed, under the idea that "we're going to design it, and they are going to build it, somewhere else, cheaper". Capitalism, except that most of those ~300 million people do not really have the means (intellectual, financial, you name it) to be scientists and engineers. To make matters worse, the American culture has a strong bias towards low-brow making fun of engineering and science (a prominent case in point: "The Big Bang Theory", or shoving sports, in particular "football", down everyone's throats at the expense of more intellectual programs). For instance, "geek" and "nerd" are very American terms which I'm not aware of existing in Europe, where being an engineer or a scientist is celebrated and prestigious. It's the perfect storm, and one which has been systematically brewed for the last 60 years of American history. Anthropologists and sociologists rejoice, for you now have a lifetime opportunity to observe what happens when you have a laissez-faire, hardcore capitalism system without checks and balances.
      - toomuchtodo 10y ago
        Spot on.
  - teh64 10y ago
    > genesis of many ghettos was in a "war on poverty" Do you have any source on this? Because ghettos have been around a lot longer (and many formed around the 1910s): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghetto#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghetto#History Whereas the "war on poverty" started around 1964: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Poverty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Poverty
thesimon 10y ago
>financial sense behind it too The classic counter example to that would be health care
st3v3r 10y ago
They kinda are. There are a number of things that have been done elsewhere in the world with success, but when it comes to America, we have to be unique and special.
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  "You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else." -- Churchill

toomuchtodo 10y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugged_individualism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugged_individualism Which works fine until you realize you don't operate in a vacuum, and your destiny is influenced by forces outside of your control.

joslin01 10y ago
What are you talking about? I said it probably makes financial sense too. I know the HN community abhors things like budgets getting in the way of universal healthcare & longer unemployment benefits, but there's a limit to what can be spent. Let me just say we should be spending a lot less money on war and a lot more money on welfare. Yet let me also say that the genesis of many ghettos was in a "war on poverty" that pushed for low-income housing. You're not being immoral by trying to evaluate each side and it certainly does not make me a rugged individualist.
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  I wasn't referring to you in particular, but Americans as a whole. The thought that if you work hard, you will always succeed. This is not the case, of course. I agree with your post.
  - joslin01 10y ago
    I just got done cleaning the dishes when I was like oh wait, maybe he wasn't referring to me? Sure enough. Sorry about that I understand now.
    - toomuchtodo 10y ago
      No worries at all. 'Tis the nature of text communication!
  - Annatar 10y ago
    We have several hundred million Americans which are all willing to work very hard, but there is not enough work for them, and what work there is, is not paid sufficiently to be able to live comfortably, or even normally. And here is where the entire concept of if you work hard, you will always succeed shatters: there are roughly 300 million Americans. The industry in which they could have (and many have) worked hard has systematically been outsourced, destroyed, under the idea that "we're going to design it, and they are going to build it, somewhere else, cheaper". Capitalism, except that most of those ~300 million people do not really have the means (intellectual, financial, you name it) to be scientists and engineers. To make matters worse, the American culture has a strong bias towards low-brow making fun of engineering and science (a prominent case in point: "The Big Bang Theory", or shoving sports, in particular "football", down everyone's throats at the expense of more intellectual programs). For instance, "geek" and "nerd" are very American terms which I'm not aware of existing in Europe, where being an engineer or a scientist is celebrated and prestigious. It's the perfect storm, and one which has been systematically brewed for the last 60 years of American history. Anthropologists and sociologists rejoice, for you now have a lifetime opportunity to observe what happens when you have a laissez-faire, hardcore capitalism system without checks and balances.
    - toomuchtodo 10y ago
      Spot on.
- teh64 10y ago
  > genesis of many ghettos was in a "war on poverty" Do you have any source on this? Because ghettos have been around a lot longer (and many formed around the 1910s): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghetto#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghetto#History Whereas the "war on poverty" started around 1964: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Poverty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Poverty

thesimon 10y ago

>financial sense behind it too The classic counter example to that would be health care

st3v3r 10y ago

They kinda are. There are a number of things that have been done elsewhere in the world with success, but when it comes to America, we have to be unique and special.

toomuchtodo 10y ago
"You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else." -- Churchill