4 ms·

Where are we with the next-gen battery tech? It's like every 5 years we see some research lab announce a breakthrough but as if yet no real progress. You woul

Where are we with the next-gen battery tech? It's like every 5 years we see some research lab announce a breakthrough but as if yet no real progress. You would have thought it would be a priority for Musk to research next-gen batteries in a really serious way.

NickM 10y ago
Lithium-ion cells have been slowly, steadily improving by a few percent a year for a long time now. A few percent is not a lot, but if these incremental improvements keep happening then that adds up to some pretty good progress. Cost is also decreasing quite rapidly as economies of scale continue to ramp up. It's not as flashy as some magical new tech that comes along and doubles battery capacities overnight, but on the flip side li-ion is already good enough for most applications. We'll need some pretty big improvements before we can have electric passenger jets, but other than that we're already in pretty good shape.
goda90 10y ago
Heck, I'd say I see an article about new battery developments multiple times a year. I wonder if the delay has as much or more to do with economics than actual research and development. It might not be in the best interest of a lot of players, whether that's battery manufacturers, or device manufacturers, to produce something that has improved longevity if that means fewer sales due to batteries wearing out.
- LoSboccacc 10y ago
  Yeah last time they completely resolved memory problems and made batteries which basically lasted forewer. http://m.learningenglish.voanews.com/a/nanowires-battery/3313100.html http://m.learningenglish.voanews.com/a/nanowires-battery/331... I wish I could live in scientist land XD
- extrapickles 10y ago
  Its economics in the manor that its non-trivial and time consuming to produce a physical good. A existing factory can take 6+ months to retool, especially if you don't want to interrupt its existing output much. Also a bunch of the developments don't pan out for various reasons, like not being able to get the yield high enough to be worth while, requires large amounts of unobtainium, have very restrictive operating requirements not mentioned in press release (such as a 140F auto-ignition temperature), etc.
excalibur 10y ago
Nice little round-up: http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/130380-future-batteries-coming-soon-charge-in-seconds-last-months-and-power-over-the-air http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/130380-future-batteries-comi... The comment about protecting commercial interests isn't wrong, but there is indeed a threshold coming where that won't be a valid reason to hold the technology back.
- yread 10y ago
  This one is missing http://www.amjtj.com/en/projekty/vysokokapacitni-li-akumulator-s-3d-elektrodami/ http://www.amjtj.com/en/projekty/vysokokapacitni-li-akumulat...
mrob 10y ago
Sodium ion might be a good option in the future. Energy density will probably never be as good as lithium ion, but cost is significantly lower, and it has the great advantage of being similar enough to lithium ion that it can be built with only small modifications to existing lithium ion manufacturing equipment. http://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/renewables/a-first-prototype-of-a-sodiumion-rechargeable-battery http://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/renewables/a-firs...
epistasis 10y ago
Lithium is pretty darn awesome battery tech, honestly! It is continuously improving faster than nearly anything else in the energy industry. Solar is obviously getting cheaper faster, and wind is getting cheaper with bigger turbines, but not much else changes in energy it seems. Chains of hydrocarbons are a better storage form for compactness, but creating that chain and deconstructing that chain are hugely inefficient processes. We've only used them up until now because the planet had saved a huge amount of its previous solar energy in that form. There are some interesting lithium flow batteries coming out that decouple the power of the battery from the amount of storage, so that should be fairly interesting to see. Other flow batteries will also be quite interesting for stationary uses. We'll need lots and lots of storage for both stationary and mobile applications. For mobile applications, I can't see anything beating lithium ion without a major breakthrough. That type of breakthrough is not what those seeming breakthroughs "every 5 years" are; those are university press releases. It's rare that the real breakthrough will get the press, because the disconnect between what's happening in the field and what's actually important is enormous (this goes for most forms of science, not just energy).
creeble 10y ago
I think the recent breakthrough in lithium-air could be next-gen if they can solve a few problems in mfg: http://theconversation.com/lithium-air-a-battery-breakthrough-explained-50027 http://theconversation.com/lithium-air-a-battery-breakthroug...
sqeaky 10y ago
> no real progress My cell phone consumes more power and stays on longer than my first phone is that not progress? I think it comes in slow increments and noticing a 5% year on year increase in battery life is lost in the noise of devices that can consume half or double the amount of energy. As for how easy it is to lose the battery gains in noise. Many stock cell phones can have their battery life extended by half again by removing all the vendor bloatware.
- acchow 10y ago
  > My cell phone consumes more power and stays on longer than my first phone is that not progress? Why do you think your cell phone consumes more power now? I remember my iPhone 3G getting really physically hot while web browsing. We measure battery tech progress in energy density, not how long your device will last (since a ton of other tech goes into your device using less power, like transistor shrinking for example. Or a javascript jit).
  - sqeaky 10y ago
    > Why do you think your cell phone consumes more power now? Good question. The ratings I read before I buy them. At the time of purchase I knew that exact mAh it consumed and compared to previous phones. I blame the 7 inch screen, 3 different antennas and 3 extra processors that my older phone didn't have. EDIT - Grammar and wording.
  - louithethrid 10y ago
    Well, ones mans history is another mens present. Returned from climbing to find that my android phone in the locker was hot like a brick from the furnace, every little bit of energy spend communicating through the em-cage that is the locker with the gyms- wifi-spot - for a upgrade. Also most prog-tech goes into not doing anything at all, if we can not avoid it. Send it to the server, sleep over it, reuse allready constructed objects of the same type- there is a whole world dancing to this tune.
maxerickson 10y ago
If you take the last 10-15 years of incremental improvements in storage density and decreases in price, it sort of looks like a whole different generation of batteries. Coupled with more efficient electronics and what is cheap hardware today would have been difficult/impossible to even build in 2002.
xyience 10y ago
Musk commented recently that he is indeed keeping a sharp eye on new-gen batteries, but nothing looks good for business use in the near-term horizon.
chrisatumd 10y ago
Musk video talking about batteries - says they are tracking 60 different battery improvement efforts. https://youtu.be/sTIH6ncIXYc?t=1563 https://youtu.be/sTIH6ncIXYc?t=1563

NickM 10y ago

Lithium-ion cells have been slowly, steadily improving by a few percent a year for a long time now. A few percent is not a lot, but if these incremental improvements keep happening then that adds up to some pretty good progress. Cost is also decreasing quite rapidly as economies of scale continue to ramp up. It's not as flashy as some magical new tech that comes along and doubles battery capacities overnight, but on the flip side li-ion is already good enough for most applications. We'll need some pretty big improvements before we can have electric passenger jets, but other than that we're already in pretty good shape.

goda90 10y ago

Heck, I'd say I see an article about new battery developments multiple times a year. I wonder if the delay has as much or more to do with economics than actual research and development. It might not be in the best interest of a lot of players, whether that's battery manufacturers, or device manufacturers, to produce something that has improved longevity if that means fewer sales due to batteries wearing out.

LoSboccacc 10y ago
Yeah last time they completely resolved memory problems and made batteries which basically lasted forewer. http://m.learningenglish.voanews.com/a/nanowires-battery/3313100.html http://m.learningenglish.voanews.com/a/nanowires-battery/331... I wish I could live in scientist land XD
extrapickles 10y ago
Its economics in the manor that its non-trivial and time consuming to produce a physical good. A existing factory can take 6+ months to retool, especially if you don't want to interrupt its existing output much. Also a bunch of the developments don't pan out for various reasons, like not being able to get the yield high enough to be worth while, requires large amounts of unobtainium, have very restrictive operating requirements not mentioned in press release (such as a 140F auto-ignition temperature), etc.

excalibur 10y ago

Nice little round-up: http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/130380-future-batteries-coming-soon-charge-in-seconds-last-months-and-power-over-the-air http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/130380-future-batteries-comi... The comment about protecting commercial interests isn't wrong, but there is indeed a threshold coming where that won't be a valid reason to hold the technology back.

yread 10y ago
This one is missing http://www.amjtj.com/en/projekty/vysokokapacitni-li-akumulator-s-3d-elektrodami/ http://www.amjtj.com/en/projekty/vysokokapacitni-li-akumulat...

mrob 10y ago

Sodium ion might be a good option in the future. Energy density will probably never be as good as lithium ion, but cost is significantly lower, and it has the great advantage of being similar enough to lithium ion that it can be built with only small modifications to existing lithium ion manufacturing equipment. http://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/renewables/a-first-prototype-of-a-sodiumion-rechargeable-battery http://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/renewables/a-firs...

epistasis 10y ago

Lithium is pretty darn awesome battery tech, honestly! It is continuously improving faster than nearly anything else in the energy industry. Solar is obviously getting cheaper faster, and wind is getting cheaper with bigger turbines, but not much else changes in energy it seems. Chains of hydrocarbons are a better storage form for compactness, but creating that chain and deconstructing that chain are hugely inefficient processes. We've only used them up until now because the planet had saved a huge amount of its previous solar energy in that form. There are some interesting lithium flow batteries coming out that decouple the power of the battery from the amount of storage, so that should be fairly interesting to see. Other flow batteries will also be quite interesting for stationary uses. We'll need lots and lots of storage for both stationary and mobile applications. For mobile applications, I can't see anything beating lithium ion without a major breakthrough. That type of breakthrough is not what those seeming breakthroughs "every 5 years" are; those are university press releases. It's rare that the real breakthrough will get the press, because the disconnect between what's happening in the field and what's actually important is enormous (this goes for most forms of science, not just energy).

creeble 10y ago

I think the recent breakthrough in lithium-air could be next-gen if they can solve a few problems in mfg: http://theconversation.com/lithium-air-a-battery-breakthrough-explained-50027 http://theconversation.com/lithium-air-a-battery-breakthroug...

sqeaky 10y ago

> no real progress My cell phone consumes more power and stays on longer than my first phone is that not progress? I think it comes in slow increments and noticing a 5% year on year increase in battery life is lost in the noise of devices that can consume half or double the amount of energy. As for how easy it is to lose the battery gains in noise. Many stock cell phones can have their battery life extended by half again by removing all the vendor bloatware.

acchow 10y ago
> My cell phone consumes more power and stays on longer than my first phone is that not progress? Why do you think your cell phone consumes more power now? I remember my iPhone 3G getting really physically hot while web browsing. We measure battery tech progress in energy density, not how long your device will last (since a ton of other tech goes into your device using less power, like transistor shrinking for example. Or a javascript jit).
- sqeaky 10y ago
  > Why do you think your cell phone consumes more power now? Good question. The ratings I read before I buy them. At the time of purchase I knew that exact mAh it consumed and compared to previous phones. I blame the 7 inch screen, 3 different antennas and 3 extra processors that my older phone didn't have. EDIT - Grammar and wording.
- louithethrid 10y ago
  Well, ones mans history is another mens present. Returned from climbing to find that my android phone in the locker was hot like a brick from the furnace, every little bit of energy spend communicating through the em-cage that is the locker with the gyms- wifi-spot - for a upgrade. Also most prog-tech goes into not doing anything at all, if we can not avoid it. Send it to the server, sleep over it, reuse allready constructed objects of the same type- there is a whole world dancing to this tune.

maxerickson 10y ago

If you take the last 10-15 years of incremental improvements in storage density and decreases in price, it sort of looks like a whole different generation of batteries. Coupled with more efficient electronics and what is cheap hardware today would have been difficult/impossible to even build in 2002.

xyience 10y ago

Musk commented recently that he is indeed keeping a sharp eye on new-gen batteries, but nothing looks good for business use in the near-term horizon.

chrisatumd 10y ago

Musk video talking about batteries - says they are tracking 60 different battery improvement efforts. https://youtu.be/sTIH6ncIXYc?t=1563 https://youtu.be/sTIH6ncIXYc?t=1563