4 ms·

There's a question then, why are support towers solid? Maybe they should be made more like the Eiffel Tower?

by mark-r 11y ago

elcapitan 11y ago
Probably to be more durable, because of the closed surface - the Eiffel tower has very high maintenance costs as it has to be steadily re-painted. It would probably not be necessary that much for modern steels, but unlike wind turbines the Eiffel tower also does not stand close to the coast or directly in the sea, where highly corrosive winds blow.
- Cerium 11y ago
  Additionally the enclosed space is useful. Inside the wind tower is a lot of equipment. There is the electronics for converting the power and monitoring the wind tower. There is a lift for ease of access to the nacelle. Current wind towers are 80m tall, next generation wind towers are more than 100m to access more reliable higher strength winds.
  - brandmeyer 11y ago
    I don't think this is a strong driver. GE 1.5 MW turbines only have a relatively small space near the base of the tower that is consumed by power electronics and control systems. Siemens has largely gone to a system where everything is in the nacelle. This way it makes it easier to completely test and connect the power electronics and control, since more of the work is done at the factory instead of in the field. Labor and equipment is much more expensive in the field than in the factory.
jacquesm 11y ago
Because a lattice tower has much worse properties when it comes to interacting with the wind. The behavior of the air behind the rotor is as important as getting quality air to flow through the rotor. Some early windparks used lattice towers, and some of those survive to the present but they are now known to be worse performance wise than tubular towers.
- logfromblammo 11y ago
  A Shukhov tower [0] has minimal wind loading, due to its hyperboloid sections. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shukhov_Tower https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shukhov_Tower
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    That profile is not very well suited to having a windmill on top of it. The problem is that the nacelle is tilted backwards only a few degrees so you need a very slender tower (or you'll have tower strikes in high winds).
    - logfromblammo 11y ago
      The cooling towers of a nuclear plant follow the same principle. The sides are formed from straight structural members angled in opposite directions (doubly ruled), and the gaps are filled with concrete. The profile of a hyperbolic wind tower may be altered such that the cross section at maximum height minus blade radius is at a minimum. The largely conical profile of the existing Shukhov towers were used for power transmission lines and a radio broadcast antenna. Check this out: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/tech/proposed-hyperboloid-energy-skyscraper-uses-simple-math-to-solve-a-big-problem/ http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/tech/proposed-hyperboloid-...
      - jacquesm 11y ago
        Interesting! You'd think that the major wind power manufacturers would have looked at all possibilities. One major immediate concern is that these look quite ugly and fat compared to the relatively thin and slender supports that the latest generation of turbines uses. I'd love to see a side-by-side comparison of these towers and the various alternatives. http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/78480146-crowley-ridge-wind-power-alberta-canada-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=wW%2BWqJ5Jns5%2FhtycaQeRKiwHOo%2B1W%2FQabqSCG%2F1%2FRWnbLBlDKuH8j9bn4OWw4zSv http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/78480146-crowley-ridge-wind... Is one example of lattice towers in production that I know of (but not like the ones you describe and I have never seen those being used for windmills).
scblock 11y ago
Lattice towers were common in the past, and are still the best weight/material to strength choice. Other considerations have led to the tubular steel tower dominating, though a new generation of enclosed lattice towers is being developed. https://renewables.gepower.com/wind-energy/technology/space-frame-tower.html https://renewables.gepower.com/wind-energy/technology/space-...
cr1895 11y ago
I know it's not really what you mean, but jacket foundations are fairly common in offshore wind. The emerged part is still always a solid tube. https://www.iscpc.org/images/gallery/Jacket_Foundations_EWE.jpg https://www.iscpc.org/images/gallery/Jacket_Foundations_EWE....
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
gumby 10y ago
They kill a lot of birds too -- birds perch on the bars and then fly off only to be stuck by a blade they didn't see.

There's a question then, why are support towers solid? Maybe they should be made more like the Eiffel Tower?

by mark-r 11y ago

There's a question then, why are support towers solid? Maybe they should be made more like the Eiffel Tower?

Probably to be more durable, because of the closed surface - the Eiffel tower has very high maintenance costs as it has to be steadily re-painted. It would probably not be necessary that much for modern steels, but unlike wind turbines the Eiffel tower also does not stand close to the coast or directly in the sea, where highly corrosive winds blow.

Cerium 11y ago
Additionally the enclosed space is useful. Inside the wind tower is a lot of equipment. There is the electronics for converting the power and monitoring the wind tower. There is a lift for ease of access to the nacelle. Current wind towers are 80m tall, next generation wind towers are more than 100m to access more reliable higher strength winds.
- brandmeyer 11y ago
  I don't think this is a strong driver. GE 1.5 MW turbines only have a relatively small space near the base of the tower that is consumed by power electronics and control systems. Siemens has largely gone to a system where everything is in the nacelle. This way it makes it easier to completely test and connect the power electronics and control, since more of the work is done at the factory instead of in the field. Labor and equipment is much more expensive in the field than in the factory.

jacquesm 11y ago

Because a lattice tower has much worse properties when it comes to interacting with the wind. The behavior of the air behind the rotor is as important as getting quality air to flow through the rotor. Some early windparks used lattice towers, and some of those survive to the present but they are now known to be worse performance wise than tubular towers.

logfromblammo 11y ago
A Shukhov tower [0] has minimal wind loading, due to its hyperboloid sections. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shukhov_Tower https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shukhov_Tower
- jacquesm 11y ago
  That profile is not very well suited to having a windmill on top of it. The problem is that the nacelle is tilted backwards only a few degrees so you need a very slender tower (or you'll have tower strikes in high winds).
  - logfromblammo 11y ago
    The cooling towers of a nuclear plant follow the same principle. The sides are formed from straight structural members angled in opposite directions (doubly ruled), and the gaps are filled with concrete. The profile of a hyperbolic wind tower may be altered such that the cross section at maximum height minus blade radius is at a minimum. The largely conical profile of the existing Shukhov towers were used for power transmission lines and a radio broadcast antenna. Check this out: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/tech/proposed-hyperboloid-energy-skyscraper-uses-simple-math-to-solve-a-big-problem/ http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/tech/proposed-hyperboloid-...
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      Interesting! You'd think that the major wind power manufacturers would have looked at all possibilities. One major immediate concern is that these look quite ugly and fat compared to the relatively thin and slender supports that the latest generation of turbines uses. I'd love to see a side-by-side comparison of these towers and the various alternatives. http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/78480146-crowley-ridge-wind-power-alberta-canada-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=wW%2BWqJ5Jns5%2FhtycaQeRKiwHOo%2B1W%2FQabqSCG%2F1%2FRWnbLBlDKuH8j9bn4OWw4zSv http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/78480146-crowley-ridge-wind... Is one example of lattice towers in production that I know of (but not like the ones you describe and I have never seen those being used for windmills).

scblock 11y ago

Lattice towers were common in the past, and are still the best weight/material to strength choice. Other considerations have led to the tubular steel tower dominating, though a new generation of enclosed lattice towers is being developed. https://renewables.gepower.com/wind-energy/technology/space-frame-tower.html https://renewables.gepower.com/wind-energy/technology/space-...

cr1895 11y ago

I know it's not really what you mean, but jacket foundations are fairly common in offshore wind. The emerged part is still always a solid tube. https://www.iscpc.org/images/gallery/Jacket_Foundations_EWE.jpg https://www.iscpc.org/images/gallery/Jacket_Foundations_EWE....

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

gumby 10y ago

They kill a lot of birds too -- birds perch on the bars and then fly off only to be stuck by a blade they didn't see.