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I too find it hard to see how so many have conflated chanting for a group, in this case the USA, as being equivalent to actively admonishing another group. The

by Inconel 10y ago

I too find it hard to see how so many have conflated chanting for a group, in this case the USA, as being equivalent to actively admonishing another group. The employees at SpaceX aren't burning the flags of foreign countries or otherwise disrespecting or mocking them, they are simply expressing pride in the nation that many of us view as playing an instrumental part in our success. I also don't know what could be done to remedy the situation, assuming its decided that a remedy is in order. I can assure everyone that to my knowledge the chants aren't at all staged, they happen organically and large numbers of employees participate in them. Again, and I hate to be overly repetitive but I think its worth noting that while I don't partake in the chants myself, if we got word from higher up that this was no longer acceptable behavior I would be extraordinarily pissed. I don't care about the chants either way but the employees here are already sacrificing a lot for this mission, they don't need their spontaneous celebrations micromanaged. The atmosphere during launches here is electric, and even I, someone who is usually extremely reserved and collected, often get emotional. Most of us work very hard and deal with a fair amount of stress, particularly in the week leading up to launch. If people want to let loose with some celebratory chants so be it. I suppose we could all just start chanting SpaceX-SpaceX-SpaceX although somehow I have feeling someone would find that equally offensive as well. I'm seriously starting to think SpaceX should just stop broadcasting the view from inside the Hawthorne facility.

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fixermark 10y ago
As a viewer of the launches, I'd be sad if the broadcast moved out of Hawthorne. We get to see a sometimes-messy slice of the culture, but we're also seeing how real engineers celebrate a real milestone accomplishment. There's not enough of that visible outside the walls of engineering; people still think of it as a boring profession. A society gets more of what it celebrates. We should keep highlighting the joys of a gigantic plan coming together.
Kutta 10y ago
You have given a fairly comprehensive explanation (here and in other comments) as to why it's unreasonable to be disturbed by the chanting and why it would be beneficial for SpaceX employees to be let chanting as they wish. I don't think is enough or appropriate. A significant fraction of global viewership is disturbed and alienated by the chants. It might well be that they're having the wrong feelings for wrong reasons, but realistically they will not adapt, and SpaceX's actions will not change their attitude in this regard, and they will continue to feel alienated. I would like to see this properly weighted and considered as a consequence. It's similar to many other situations where you believe that people with different religions and attitudes are offended for ultimately wrong reasons, but you still don't go casually provoking them or making them feel bad.
- Inconel 10y ago
  Thanks for sharing your point of view and I appreciate you doing so in a respectful manner and taking my own feelings on the subject into account. I'm still not sure what the best solution to this problem would be. While I certainly believe that everyone, including and perhaps especially Americans, should be more cognizant of how our actions are viewed by others, I don't in general like the idea of constantly being fearful that some action, no matter how innocuous you may think it is, will cause offense to someone else and thus needs to be avoided. I think it's fair to assume that some of the things you or I may do or believe will be offensive or alienating to someone somewhere. I hope you can find my attempt at understanding your point of view sincere and that I don't mean to be dismissive of your concerns. I also don't know what could be done to address the issue internally without upsetting many people here. Even I would find a banning of the chants to be heavy handed on the part of management. As I said previously, perhaps the best course of action would be to simply stop broadcasting from within the Hawthorne facility. The launch and recovery feeds are far more interesting than the employee celebrations anyway.
  - jamesknelson 10y ago
    Reading this thread has been an interesting opportunity for introspection. A number of people on both sides have made very valid points. In particular, your description of the atmosphere on the inside makes the whole thing quite a lot easier to accept, and even get behind. With this said, I think I've also come to understand more about why instinctively I feel a little uncomfortable. It is because as a foreigner who would love to work for SpaceX, I don't feel I can - because it is nigh impossible in this day and age to become American without some decent amount of wealth. If it wasn't for ITAR, I think the chant would be less uncomfortable, because it would be less exclusionary. That said, I don't think you or other Americans should give a rats about what randoms on HN think. We're just jealous of your opportunity to be part of history. Don't feel guilty about having an opportunity, but instead do your best with it. And if that means chanting USA, then do it without any second thoughts!

by Inconel 10y ago

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

fixermark 10y ago

As a viewer of the launches, I'd be sad if the broadcast moved out of Hawthorne. We get to see a sometimes-messy slice of the culture, but we're also seeing how real engineers celebrate a real milestone accomplishment. There's not enough of that visible outside the walls of engineering; people still think of it as a boring profession. A society gets more of what it celebrates. We should keep highlighting the joys of a gigantic plan coming together.

Kutta 10y ago

You have given a fairly comprehensive explanation (here and in other comments) as to why it's unreasonable to be disturbed by the chanting and why it would be beneficial for SpaceX employees to be let chanting as they wish. I don't think is enough or appropriate. A significant fraction of global viewership is disturbed and alienated by the chants. It might well be that they're having the wrong feelings for wrong reasons, but realistically they will not adapt, and SpaceX's actions will not change their attitude in this regard, and they will continue to feel alienated. I would like to see this properly weighted and considered as a consequence. It's similar to many other situations where you believe that people with different religions and attitudes are offended for ultimately wrong reasons, but you still don't go casually provoking them or making them feel bad.

Inconel 10y ago
Thanks for sharing your point of view and I appreciate you doing so in a respectful manner and taking my own feelings on the subject into account. I'm still not sure what the best solution to this problem would be. While I certainly believe that everyone, including and perhaps especially Americans, should be more cognizant of how our actions are viewed by others, I don't in general like the idea of constantly being fearful that some action, no matter how innocuous you may think it is, will cause offense to someone else and thus needs to be avoided. I think it's fair to assume that some of the things you or I may do or believe will be offensive or alienating to someone somewhere. I hope you can find my attempt at understanding your point of view sincere and that I don't mean to be dismissive of your concerns. I also don't know what could be done to address the issue internally without upsetting many people here. Even I would find a banning of the chants to be heavy handed on the part of management. As I said previously, perhaps the best course of action would be to simply stop broadcasting from within the Hawthorne facility. The launch and recovery feeds are far more interesting than the employee celebrations anyway.
- jamesknelson 10y ago
  Reading this thread has been an interesting opportunity for introspection. A number of people on both sides have made very valid points. In particular, your description of the atmosphere on the inside makes the whole thing quite a lot easier to accept, and even get behind. With this said, I think I've also come to understand more about why instinctively I feel a little uncomfortable. It is because as a foreigner who would love to work for SpaceX, I don't feel I can - because it is nigh impossible in this day and age to become American without some decent amount of wealth. If it wasn't for ITAR, I think the chant would be less uncomfortable, because it would be less exclusionary. That said, I don't think you or other Americans should give a rats about what randoms on HN think. We're just jealous of your opportunity to be part of history. Don't feel guilty about having an opportunity, but instead do your best with it. And if that means chanting USA, then do it without any second thoughts!