4 ms·

There's probably a grain of truth in Noah's Flood. There's similar flood myths in several religions, that place the flood in around the same period (for a very

by meric 10y ago

There's probably a grain of truth in Noah's Flood. There's similar flood myths in several religions, that place the flood in around the same period (for a very wide definition of around). I suspect there was a major flood event, a flood so big people interpret it as divine punishment. The flood may have went as far as the eye can see, at every place people may have ever been to, and would translate to "It was flooded everywhere", which over time got translated to "the whole world". [1] For a fun exercise, we could replace statements involving God and they would suddenly make more sense. "God created the universe." => "The universe created the universe". "God created human beings" => "The universe created human beings" "God shapes everyone's lives." => "The universe shapes everyone's lives". "Jesus is the son of God." => "Jesus is the son of the universe". "God is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent, divinely simple, eternal and necessary"[2], "The universe is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent, divinely simple, eternal and necessary". "So God created mankind in his own image" => "So the universe created mankind in its own image". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth#Claims_of_historicity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth#Claims_of_historici... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God

dalke 10y ago
Floods happen often. I see no reason to think 'the grain of truth' means we should even consider the idea that the water went as far as the eye could see. Your "wide definition of around" is a span of over 1,000 years. Look to the tall tales of the American West, like Paul Bunyan or Pecos Bill, for examples of how tall tales can be embellished in an oral tradition. Each ended up giving a creation myth for the Grand Canyon. What is the grain of truth behind those stories? Your exercise is also one of cherry picking. Consider Job 1:1 with your replacement: "This man was blameless and upright; he feared the Universe and shunned evil." What does it mean to fear the Universe? Or Job 9:13 "God does not restrain his anger; even the cohorts of Rahab cowered at his feet." What does it mean for the universe to be angry? What are the feet of the universe? Or in Genesis 1:6-8: ""And [the Universe] said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” So [the Universe] made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. [The Universe] called the vault “sky.”"" How does the Universe speak? Also, I find it hard to reconcile omniscience with special relativity, which says that it's not possible to know what lies beyond the light cone. Perhaps each point in the Universe is its own god?
- meric 10y ago
  By grain I meant a grain in an entire granary. They are quite tall tales. It doesn't mean those tales weren't borne of actual human experience. To fear is to fear the universe, obviously. When you are angry, the universe is angry, since you and the universe is inseparable. Every foot in the universe are one of the feet of the universe. You quoted an English bible. Did the early Christians believe God, spoke, English? Of course not. The God they believed in merely expressed the idea of seperating the waters. One could say the universe expressed the idea of splitting the waters by splitting the waters, and it was so. Do the nerves in your toes know what lies in your brain? Perhaps each neuron is its own brain? Anyway, it is a fun exercise, I did not say all statements, and I did not say it would make complete sense, merely more sense. But thanks and upvoted for quoting those passages. It was fun reading the substitutions you've made.
  - dalke 10y ago
    Ahh, the "religion as metaphor" approach. The Bible mentions Claudius, therefore that kernel of truth ... tells us nothing, because we can't tell which tales are "borne of actual human experience" any more than we can do the same with Paul Bunyan and Pecos Bill. In context, Job is an honorable man and someone to emulate. If I fear the universe, then I fear the wheat, and a mouse, my neighbor, and my nose, and the water I drink, and my children. Is that really someone to emulate? Not according to Psalm 118:6: "The LORD is with me; I will not be afraid. What can mere mortals do to me?". How can someone be afraid of the universe, but not afraid of mortals in the universe? Your interpretation of God = Universe is inconsistent with the God of the Bible. FWIW, some of the other gods mentioned in the Bible are Remphan, Jupiter, Baal, Mercurius, and Diana. So a phrase like Deuteronomy 6:14 "Do not follow other gods, the gods of the peoples around you" doesn't make sense as "Do not follow other universes, the universes of the people around you." That makes less sense than God as an entity distinct from the universe. (And an entity with the ability to have a hand write 'Mene, mene, tekel upharsin' on a wall, using a human hand.) Yes, I used an English translation of the Bible. I could have used Swedish, but I doubt you know Swedish. Do you think I'm so ignorant as to think early Christians thought God spoke English to the early Jews? Then you slip into solipsism, which is even less interesting than the metaphor argument. One can say many things. One can say the universe started as a cosmic egg in floating in non-existence before opening up to produce the 8 heavenly worlds and one earthly one. But you didn't. You started with, and stayed close to, the monotheism associated with the Christian Bible.

by meric 10y ago

dalke 10y ago

Floods happen often. I see no reason to think 'the grain of truth' means we should even consider the idea that the water went as far as the eye could see. Your "wide definition of around" is a span of over 1,000 years. Look to the tall tales of the American West, like Paul Bunyan or Pecos Bill, for examples of how tall tales can be embellished in an oral tradition. Each ended up giving a creation myth for the Grand Canyon. What is the grain of truth behind those stories? Your exercise is also one of cherry picking. Consider Job 1:1 with your replacement: "This man was blameless and upright; he feared the Universe and shunned evil." What does it mean to fear the Universe? Or Job 9:13 "God does not restrain his anger; even the cohorts of Rahab cowered at his feet." What does it mean for the universe to be angry? What are the feet of the universe? Or in Genesis 1:6-8: ""And [the Universe] said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” So [the Universe] made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. [The Universe] called the vault “sky.”"" How does the Universe speak? Also, I find it hard to reconcile omniscience with special relativity, which says that it's not possible to know what lies beyond the light cone. Perhaps each point in the Universe is its own god?

meric 10y ago
By grain I meant a grain in an entire granary. They are quite tall tales. It doesn't mean those tales weren't borne of actual human experience. To fear is to fear the universe, obviously. When you are angry, the universe is angry, since you and the universe is inseparable. Every foot in the universe are one of the feet of the universe. You quoted an English bible. Did the early Christians believe God, spoke, English? Of course not. The God they believed in merely expressed the idea of seperating the waters. One could say the universe expressed the idea of splitting the waters by splitting the waters, and it was so. Do the nerves in your toes know what lies in your brain? Perhaps each neuron is its own brain? Anyway, it is a fun exercise, I did not say all statements, and I did not say it would make complete sense, merely more sense. But thanks and upvoted for quoting those passages. It was fun reading the substitutions you've made.
- dalke 10y ago
  Ahh, the "religion as metaphor" approach. The Bible mentions Claudius, therefore that kernel of truth ... tells us nothing, because we can't tell which tales are "borne of actual human experience" any more than we can do the same with Paul Bunyan and Pecos Bill. In context, Job is an honorable man and someone to emulate. If I fear the universe, then I fear the wheat, and a mouse, my neighbor, and my nose, and the water I drink, and my children. Is that really someone to emulate? Not according to Psalm 118:6: "The LORD is with me; I will not be afraid. What can mere mortals do to me?". How can someone be afraid of the universe, but not afraid of mortals in the universe? Your interpretation of God = Universe is inconsistent with the God of the Bible. FWIW, some of the other gods mentioned in the Bible are Remphan, Jupiter, Baal, Mercurius, and Diana. So a phrase like Deuteronomy 6:14 "Do not follow other gods, the gods of the peoples around you" doesn't make sense as "Do not follow other universes, the universes of the people around you." That makes less sense than God as an entity distinct from the universe. (And an entity with the ability to have a hand write 'Mene, mene, tekel upharsin' on a wall, using a human hand.) Yes, I used an English translation of the Bible. I could have used Swedish, but I doubt you know Swedish. Do you think I'm so ignorant as to think early Christians thought God spoke English to the early Jews? Then you slip into solipsism, which is even less interesting than the metaphor argument. One can say many things. One can say the universe started as a cosmic egg in floating in non-existence before opening up to produce the 8 heavenly worlds and one earthly one. But you didn't. You started with, and stayed close to, the monotheism associated with the Christian Bible.