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So... people are leaving places they can't afford to live? I'm not sure I see the problem - this isn't a new thing. I loved the town where I went to college,

by gozur88 11y ago

So... people are leaving places they can't afford to live? I'm not sure I see the problem - this isn't a new thing. I loved the town where I went to college, and stayed there a few years after graduation. But the combination of high housing costs and low wages meant I'd never buy a house if I stayed. So I left and went somewhere that had a better CoL/wage ratio. That's life.

onion2k 11y ago
The problem is that in the medium term the costs for policing, fire services, schools, etc all rise because you have to pay more to attract people to live and work in the expensive city. The only way to do that is through taxation[1]. In the long term that higher taxation drives away the companies, so you're left with an expensive city that can't afford to raise enough revenue to run. Then the city goes bankrupt. The preferred solution is to not let things get out of hand in the first place. [1] There are other options like stopping having these things provided publicly but few people would advocate that.
- gozur88 11y ago
  If that's all the case, people moving away from expensive areas is a good thing, since it will drive down the cost of housing.
  - Sgt_Apone 11y ago
    The people who are moving away are doing so because they can't participate in the housing market in the first place. I don't see how people who can't buy houses and are leaving the area will drive down housing costs.
    - cmdrfred 11y ago
      It will for rentals, if supply is static but demand decreases prices will go down.
      - onion2k 11y ago
        Not necessarily. If landlords would rather keep their property on the market in the hopes of getting a higher rent price than lower the price then the price will remain static. There'll just be more un-let, empty properties. In the UK this happens a lot because property tax (council tax as it's known here) is discounted on an empty property, so there isn't much incentive to fill the property at a lower price. The economics of the property market are weird.
moonshinefe 11y ago
Be quiet and accept capitalism in other words. Brilliant, out of touch response. Some people have lived their entire lives in cities, paid into the taxes and helped build businesses, infrastructure, and the like, only to be kicked out due to lack of regulations in the housing market and the flood gates opening and driving prices through the roof. I suspect you haven't experienced it given your flippant response.
- golergka 11y ago
  You sound as if people who lived somewhere a long time acquire some sort of exclusive rights to the place, regardless of how much other people want to live there and how much are they willing to pay for it.
  - moonshinefe 11y ago
    "You sound as if people who lived somewhere a long time acquire some sort of exclusive rights to the place" Swing and a miss. You must be wealthy or not live in an area where the cost of living is out of control and people have to leave their home towns and other things behind to survive. Nobody said anything about exclusive rights or anything remotely like that.
    - Chris2048 11y ago
      What's the meaning of mentioning "people have to leave their home towns" if not that they have greater rights to live and work there?
    - golergka 11y ago
      Actually, if my landlord decides to update rent to market level next year, I'll have to move to another neighborhood or city. Don't see anything tragic about that and don't think that I deserve this apartment more than next tenant that will be ready to pay the price.
- Chris2048 11y ago
  "out of touch" with who/what exactly? People who contribute that much, but have nothing to show for it? Those businesses they built can't have been very successful..
Chathamization 11y ago
I don't entirely disagree, but I think that this whole discussion might be missing the underlying issue. I don't think the problem is so much people being priced out of a particular area (not everyone's going to be able to have a large place in Manhattan), but rather that there are certain things people want that cities are the best at providing. People want things like walkable neighborhoods, a close proximity to their workplace, cultural events, public transportation, greater density, etc. I think that if there more areas like this outside of the major cities, this wouldn't be so much of an issue. Fortunately, it seems like (at least in the U.S.) there is a movement to create more city-like suburbs, but this takes time.
- ghaff 11y ago
  >there are certain things people want that cities are the best at providing The real issue though is that it's not "cities" in the generic that provide all these great things that many people want (while also being relatively safe and having a good choice of employers). It's a relative handful of cities--mostly coastal in the US. There's plenty of affordable housing in Detroit and New Orleans. The numbers tend to bear this out. From what I've seen, there isn't a particular urbanization trend among young people. What there is is somewhat of a migration of college educated young people to a handful of particularly dense cities.
  - santaclaus 11y ago
    > It's a relative handful of cities--mostly coastal in the US. There's plenty of affordable housing in Detroit and New Orleans. NOLA is on a coast.
    - ghaff 11y ago
      Well, it's a couple hours from the coast (about like Houston). I lived there. I said that the relative handful of desirable cities are mostly coastal. There are many cities that are less in demand. Many are (unsurprisingly) inland. However, there are also a variety of coastal cities that are not fast growing. [ADD: Mostly in the Southeast although there are also some smaller cities on or near the Pacific Coast in the Northwest like Eugene.]

by gozur88 11y ago

onion2k 11y ago

The problem is that in the medium term the costs for policing, fire services, schools, etc all rise because you have to pay more to attract people to live and work in the expensive city. The only way to do that is through taxation[1]. In the long term that higher taxation drives away the companies, so you're left with an expensive city that can't afford to raise enough revenue to run. Then the city goes bankrupt. The preferred solution is to not let things get out of hand in the first place. [1] There are other options like stopping having these things provided publicly but few people would advocate that.

gozur88 11y ago
If that's all the case, people moving away from expensive areas is a good thing, since it will drive down the cost of housing.
- Sgt_Apone 11y ago
  The people who are moving away are doing so because they can't participate in the housing market in the first place. I don't see how people who can't buy houses and are leaving the area will drive down housing costs.
  - cmdrfred 11y ago
    It will for rentals, if supply is static but demand decreases prices will go down.
    - onion2k 11y ago
      Not necessarily. If landlords would rather keep their property on the market in the hopes of getting a higher rent price than lower the price then the price will remain static. There'll just be more un-let, empty properties. In the UK this happens a lot because property tax (council tax as it's known here) is discounted on an empty property, so there isn't much incentive to fill the property at a lower price. The economics of the property market are weird.

moonshinefe 11y ago

Be quiet and accept capitalism in other words. Brilliant, out of touch response. Some people have lived their entire lives in cities, paid into the taxes and helped build businesses, infrastructure, and the like, only to be kicked out due to lack of regulations in the housing market and the flood gates opening and driving prices through the roof. I suspect you haven't experienced it given your flippant response.

golergka 11y ago
You sound as if people who lived somewhere a long time acquire some sort of exclusive rights to the place, regardless of how much other people want to live there and how much are they willing to pay for it.
- moonshinefe 11y ago
  "You sound as if people who lived somewhere a long time acquire some sort of exclusive rights to the place" Swing and a miss. You must be wealthy or not live in an area where the cost of living is out of control and people have to leave their home towns and other things behind to survive. Nobody said anything about exclusive rights or anything remotely like that.
  - Chris2048 11y ago
    What's the meaning of mentioning "people have to leave their home towns" if not that they have greater rights to live and work there?
  - golergka 11y ago
    Actually, if my landlord decides to update rent to market level next year, I'll have to move to another neighborhood or city. Don't see anything tragic about that and don't think that I deserve this apartment more than next tenant that will be ready to pay the price.
Chris2048 11y ago
"out of touch" with who/what exactly? People who contribute that much, but have nothing to show for it? Those businesses they built can't have been very successful..

Chathamization 11y ago

I don't entirely disagree, but I think that this whole discussion might be missing the underlying issue. I don't think the problem is so much people being priced out of a particular area (not everyone's going to be able to have a large place in Manhattan), but rather that there are certain things people want that cities are the best at providing. People want things like walkable neighborhoods, a close proximity to their workplace, cultural events, public transportation, greater density, etc. I think that if there more areas like this outside of the major cities, this wouldn't be so much of an issue. Fortunately, it seems like (at least in the U.S.) there is a movement to create more city-like suburbs, but this takes time.

ghaff 11y ago
>there are certain things people want that cities are the best at providing The real issue though is that it's not "cities" in the generic that provide all these great things that many people want (while also being relatively safe and having a good choice of employers). It's a relative handful of cities--mostly coastal in the US. There's plenty of affordable housing in Detroit and New Orleans. The numbers tend to bear this out. From what I've seen, there isn't a particular urbanization trend among young people. What there is is somewhat of a migration of college educated young people to a handful of particularly dense cities.
- santaclaus 11y ago
  > It's a relative handful of cities--mostly coastal in the US. There's plenty of affordable housing in Detroit and New Orleans. NOLA is on a coast.
  - ghaff 11y ago
    Well, it's a couple hours from the coast (about like Houston). I lived there. I said that the relative handful of desirable cities are mostly coastal. There are many cities that are less in demand. Many are (unsurprisingly) inland. However, there are also a variety of coastal cities that are not fast growing. [ADD: Mostly in the Southeast although there are also some smaller cities on or near the Pacific Coast in the Northwest like Eugene.]