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Sometimes these things get too extreme, but they do have valid reasons. Zoning should be obvious. Do you mind if I build a solid rocket factory next to your ho

by burfog 11y ago

Sometimes these things get too extreme, but they do have valid reasons. Zoning should be obvious. Do you mind if I build a solid rocket factory next to your house, complete with test stand and storage of enough ammonium perchlorate to register on the Richter scale if it goes boom? (see the PEPCON disaster, which was 3 to 3.5 on the Richter scale) Setbacks, minimum lot sizes, and maximum units per lot are needed for drainage. It costs lots more money to run storm drains. Setback requirements keep your neighbors from blocking your view. Suppose you buy a house in a normal suburban place, 100 feet back from the road. Your neighbors decide to extend their houses or build new ones, going right up to the street. You'd be pissed that they blocked off most of your light. Manhatten even has similar requirements for skyscrapers, imposed after one wise guy built right up to the street and blocked out the Sun. Minimum parking requirements stop all sorts of evil and unproductive behavior. In places without enough parking, much of the traffic is people driving around and around in search of parking. People hesitate to leave a good parking space. People doing business or living at one property will swipe the parking in front of a different property. Because of this swiping behavior, there is a huge disincentive to provide any parking at all. Minimum road widths reduce driver stress. That stress increases heart attacks, divorce, and violence. Minimum road widths reduce fender-bender damage. Minimum road widths allow the movement of moving trucks, utility trucks, fire trucks, and garbage trucks.

graeme 11y ago
If this is true, why do cities built precar work? I live in a neighbourhood in montreal where: * There are no rocket factories, yet * There are some setbacks but not massive ones. They're half the size of a comparable neighbourhood in Toronto. We don't flood. * Nobody's view is blocked * Most people walk, rather than drive. There's not excessive car circulation compared to other neighborhoods. * People are significantly more relaxed, and healthier, because they can walk rather than drive. Plateau mont royal. Have a look at the place on Google maps. If we could clone this neighborhood and build it around the USA, developers would make trillions. It's very dense, yet families live here. Also: How do we make a list on Hacker News? I've never figured this out.
- ptaipale 11y ago
  >If this is true, why do cities built precar work? A partial answer is that they have used zoning to externalize many of the services and production needed by the area built pre-car to areas built post-car. You don't have rocket factories in downtown Montreal precisely because zoning has created a more effective area for them somewhere else. But most of your food, energy, and all things you use, all the physical goods come from somewhere else. And if people are like here, they whine about the transport of food to their local store when it's done by a van or something because they don't want vans, they just want food. Anyway, it's telling that in many cities, some of the most desirable areas couldn't be built today due to construction and other codes. Not just parking, but also things like fire safety, energy efficiency and access for disabled people. Over here (Helsinki region), tiny downtown apartments are very fashionable but building them is absolute no-no, because 1) in an attempt to increase quality of housing stock, its forbidden to build apartments smaller than 20 m2, and a certain proportion must be over 75 m2 (or whatever, depends on zoning area) 2) in an attempt to give better access to handicapped people, every apartment must have a bathroom with floor space big enough to dance a waltz in a wheelchair; likewise, access only via stairs (typical in old, fashionable and popular sites) is not allowed 3) ratios of window form factor and apartment depth are specified in code 4) every apartment needs to provide bomb shelter capacity for residents 5) for fire safety, it must be possible to drive up a fire truck with ladder/crane and lift out any people from every apartment via windows/balconies 6) modern energy saving and health requirements mandate electronically guided ventilation which makes re-construction of "old" style houses unfeasible etc. The parking norms get most attention, because cars are a convenient target, but there are also many other things that are simply making old-style neighbourhoods impossible.
tamana 11y ago
Yes, you have outlibes the ways zoning is a stack of LOCAL optimizations that is GLOBALLY pessimal. Tragedy of the commons.
clarkmoody 11y ago
You are completely forgetting about voluntary restrictions on land use via mechanisms like Homeowners' Associations. Want to enforce setback on your new development? Fine. But how do you know that setback is what everyone in the whole city needs?

by burfog 11y ago

graeme 11y ago

If this is true, why do cities built precar work? I live in a neighbourhood in montreal where: * There are no rocket factories, yet * There are some setbacks but not massive ones. They're half the size of a comparable neighbourhood in Toronto. We don't flood. * Nobody's view is blocked * Most people walk, rather than drive. There's not excessive car circulation compared to other neighborhoods. * People are significantly more relaxed, and healthier, because they can walk rather than drive. Plateau mont royal. Have a look at the place on Google maps. If we could clone this neighborhood and build it around the USA, developers would make trillions. It's very dense, yet families live here. Also: How do we make a list on Hacker News? I've never figured this out.

ptaipale 11y ago
>If this is true, why do cities built precar work? A partial answer is that they have used zoning to externalize many of the services and production needed by the area built pre-car to areas built post-car. You don't have rocket factories in downtown Montreal precisely because zoning has created a more effective area for them somewhere else. But most of your food, energy, and all things you use, all the physical goods come from somewhere else. And if people are like here, they whine about the transport of food to their local store when it's done by a van or something because they don't want vans, they just want food. Anyway, it's telling that in many cities, some of the most desirable areas couldn't be built today due to construction and other codes. Not just parking, but also things like fire safety, energy efficiency and access for disabled people. Over here (Helsinki region), tiny downtown apartments are very fashionable but building them is absolute no-no, because 1) in an attempt to increase quality of housing stock, its forbidden to build apartments smaller than 20 m2, and a certain proportion must be over 75 m2 (or whatever, depends on zoning area) 2) in an attempt to give better access to handicapped people, every apartment must have a bathroom with floor space big enough to dance a waltz in a wheelchair; likewise, access only via stairs (typical in old, fashionable and popular sites) is not allowed 3) ratios of window form factor and apartment depth are specified in code 4) every apartment needs to provide bomb shelter capacity for residents 5) for fire safety, it must be possible to drive up a fire truck with ladder/crane and lift out any people from every apartment via windows/balconies 6) modern energy saving and health requirements mandate electronically guided ventilation which makes re-construction of "old" style houses unfeasible etc. The parking norms get most attention, because cars are a convenient target, but there are also many other things that are simply making old-style neighbourhoods impossible.

tamana 11y ago

Yes, you have outlibes the ways zoning is a stack of LOCAL optimizations that is GLOBALLY pessimal. Tragedy of the commons.

clarkmoody 11y ago

You are completely forgetting about voluntary restrictions on land use via mechanisms like Homeowners' Associations. Want to enforce setback on your new development? Fine. But how do you know that setback is what everyone in the whole city needs?