7 ms·

Ogg objections

80 points by kierank 17y ago

alilja 17y ago
Also, no one uses Ogg.
- teilo 17y ago
  Then I must be no one.
- johngunderman 17y ago
  I use Ogg... Sometimes. I'm actually a bit curious about why no-one has suggested the use of mkv. It is an open container format, and works quite well in my experience.
- kevingadd 17y ago
  http://wiki.xiph.org/Games_that_use_Vorbis http://wiki.xiph.org/Games_that_use_Vorbis
  - aw3c2 17y ago
    Don't forget archive.org, they are probably the biggest Vorbis and Theora user out there.
    - blasdel 17y ago
      Except in the cases that they have lossless copies from the artist, it's all transcoded crap, mostly from crappy MP3s. Wikipedia's also a big user, and their stuff is almost exclusively transcoded from other lossy codecs, because they care more about their self-righteousness than worldly concerns like passable quality, much less the ability for any of their users to decode it.
      - ZeroGravitas 17y ago
        Anything I've looked at on Archive.org (mostly video but some audio) has the original uploaded file plus trascodes into Ogg Theora and H.264. So even if it is "transcoded crap", you're given the option of the original. Which makes sense when you've got "archive" in your name. Wikipedia may only serve free formats, but they'll make use of stuff from Archive.org so you can click through to the original if it's there.
ZeroGravitas 17y ago
I can't help but feel the ffmpeg guys, despite providing a great service to the world, have got a real chip on their shoulder when it comes to all things Ogg and Xiph. Does he think the ranty tone really helps get his message across? At least it's all written down in one place instead of sniped from the comments every time it could be vaguely thought relevant. See this recent argument (between DonDiego and Monty) in the comment section of a blog about Google and VP8, which I assume prompted this article: http://blog.gingertech.net/2010/02/20/googles-challenges-of-freeing-vp8#comment-4844 http://blog.gingertech.net/2010/02/20/googles-challenges-of-...
- madair 17y ago
  Are you going to bother responding to the specific points, or just the personal attack?
  - ZeroGravitas 17y ago
    I assume your reply and my edit overlapped, but the link contains the other side of the argument. Besides that, as I'm not really qualified to comment on the technical arguments, the way they are presented heavily influences my evaluation. On that metric alone ffmpeg is losing this argument badly. If they really care that much (and it appears they really, really do) then they'd do well to take that criticism on board.
    - deleted 17y ago
      [deleted]
    - madair 17y ago
      Yes, it must have overlapped. (I can't edit my previous comment anymore to recognize that, or I would :)
- youngian 17y ago
  This is something that OSS folks in general need to work on. People forget that tone does matter. Speaking your mind is good, but speaking your mind in a caustic fashion doesn't help your cause. Especially when the issue is a complex domain-specific one (like the convoluted world of AV containers and codecs), and the vast majority of people are not going to understand the fine technical nuances of your argument.
maggit 17y ago
Assuming it is true, it still does not alter the fact that Ogg is a bad format. Being free from patents does not magically make Ogg a good choice as file format. If all the standard formats are indeed covered by patents, the only proper solution is to design a new, good format which is not, this time hopefully avoiding the old mistakes. Well, being free from patents can be a very good feature, and may very well make this the only -- and therefore best -- available choice. It might not be possible to make a good format to replace it exactly due to patents. Too many patents on obvious and necessary solutions exist. However, I don't know the specifics. I would have liked a similar discussion on the format which included patent concerns. Can anyone fill in? :)
- sern 17y ago
  Just because their authors say that doesn't mean that it's true. Worse still, no corporation is willing to perform a patent search because such an activity could open a liability should it be discovered that something they already use is covered by a patent they previously were unaware of. The fact is that it is extremely difficult to implement any multimedia application without running afoul of a patent. Rational developers will pick the safest option, and that is to license the MPEG patents, which (I believe) also offers submarine patent protection in that the MPEG-LA would be solely liable for not finding them earlier should trouble arise. The good news is that these patents are not enforceable worldwide, and the first of them should start expiring (if they haven't already) within the next few years.
  - freetard 17y ago
    Theora is VP3+few well documented modifications. Youtube for years and still today used on2 codecs (through flash) which are all based on VP3 with optimization. If Theora and therefore VP3 were patent encumbered so would be all the codecs used by youtube, hulu, vimeo and all sites that use flash video. Now if I had a patent on vp3, would I be crazy enough to wait for theora to be successful in order to sue the hell out of everyone? Or would I have already been suing google, adobe and friends? That's what make patents in theora extremely unlikely IMO. That and the fact that theora devs are extremely cautious on the matter, this is also the reason why theora is not as good as it should be (avoiding patents at all price).
Avenger42 17y ago
Something I discovered by accident: in the "Final Words" section, if you mouse over the italic words "Ogg isn't bad, it's just different", they change to "Ogg isn't dead, it's just resting". I don't really understand the reason behind that.
- maggit 17y ago
  "* isn't dead, it's just resting" is a reference to Monty Python's famous Dead Parrot skit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vuW6tQ0218 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vuW6tQ0218 By this the author means that "Ogg isn't bad, it's just different" is essentially a lie, because the author means that Ogg is obviously bad.
  - Avenger42 17y ago
    Aha. The reference passed over my head. Slightly too young for Monty Python to immediately spring to mind. (Now if it were a BtVS reference...) I did accept his premise of "not bad, just different" because he laid out his explanation below. Not catching the humor in the reference, I thought he was trying to lay out a broader "Ogg is dead" theme that I didn't see any support for.
- doty 17y ago
  Maybe it's just an easter ogg.
DarkShikari 17y ago
The biggest aggravation is the fact that we have a container that is: 1. Reasonably well-designed. 2. Patent-free with a dozen free implementations. 3. Widely-used, far more so than Ogg. 4. General, with the ability to contain nearly any video, audio, or subtitle format. 5. Fully-featured, with the ability to compete effectively with MP4 and other popular container formats. 6. Supported by DivX as the replacement for AVI. It's called Matroska. And practically everyone promoting Ogg pretends that it doesn't exist. My theory is that the difference is one of control. Having talked to many Ogg evangelists, this seems to be the problem: Matroska allows you to use video and audio formats that Xiph doesn't like. Ogg does not. Therefore, Ogg is "more free" because it doesn't let you do what you want. It's much the same argument as GPL vs BSD: the GPL is "more free" because it places more restrictions upon users/distributors of the software.
- please 17y ago
  does matroska work for streaming?
  - DarkShikari 17y ago
    Yes. Matroska's index is optional, and thus one should be able to stream it simply by omitting the index. I suspect many existing implementations are suboptimal for streaming though simply because almost nobody uses it that way and so they have not been as tested as they otherwise would be. But this is easy to solve since the format itself already supports streaming.
    - please 17y ago
      is there a server and client that supports it? from http://www.matroska.org/technical/guides/faq/index.html http://www.matroska.org/technical/guides/faq/index.html Will Matroska be streamable? Yes, but low bitrate streaming like streaming Vorbis, will always be better in Ogg. This is because their design is for different purposes.
      - DarkShikari 17y ago
sliverstorm 17y ago
Oh god, it's like reading about LDAP all over again...

Ogg objections

80 points by kierank 17y ago

alilja 17y ago

Also, no one uses Ogg.

teilo 17y ago
Then I must be no one.
johngunderman 17y ago
I use Ogg... Sometimes. I'm actually a bit curious about why no-one has suggested the use of mkv. It is an open container format, and works quite well in my experience.
kevingadd 17y ago
http://wiki.xiph.org/Games_that_use_Vorbis http://wiki.xiph.org/Games_that_use_Vorbis
- aw3c2 17y ago
  Don't forget archive.org, they are probably the biggest Vorbis and Theora user out there.
  - blasdel 17y ago
    Except in the cases that they have lossless copies from the artist, it's all transcoded crap, mostly from crappy MP3s. Wikipedia's also a big user, and their stuff is almost exclusively transcoded from other lossy codecs, because they care more about their self-righteousness than worldly concerns like passable quality, much less the ability for any of their users to decode it.
    - ZeroGravitas 17y ago
      Anything I've looked at on Archive.org (mostly video but some audio) has the original uploaded file plus trascodes into Ogg Theora and H.264. So even if it is "transcoded crap", you're given the option of the original. Which makes sense when you've got "archive" in your name. Wikipedia may only serve free formats, but they'll make use of stuff from Archive.org so you can click through to the original if it's there.

ZeroGravitas 17y ago

I can't help but feel the ffmpeg guys, despite providing a great service to the world, have got a real chip on their shoulder when it comes to all things Ogg and Xiph. Does he think the ranty tone really helps get his message across? At least it's all written down in one place instead of sniped from the comments every time it could be vaguely thought relevant. See this recent argument (between DonDiego and Monty) in the comment section of a blog about Google and VP8, which I assume prompted this article: http://blog.gingertech.net/2010/02/20/googles-challenges-of-freeing-vp8#comment-4844 http://blog.gingertech.net/2010/02/20/googles-challenges-of-...

madair 17y ago
Are you going to bother responding to the specific points, or just the personal attack?
- ZeroGravitas 17y ago
  I assume your reply and my edit overlapped, but the link contains the other side of the argument. Besides that, as I'm not really qualified to comment on the technical arguments, the way they are presented heavily influences my evaluation. On that metric alone ffmpeg is losing this argument badly. If they really care that much (and it appears they really, really do) then they'd do well to take that criticism on board.
  - deleted 17y ago
    [deleted]
  - madair 17y ago
    Yes, it must have overlapped. (I can't edit my previous comment anymore to recognize that, or I would :)
youngian 17y ago
This is something that OSS folks in general need to work on. People forget that tone does matter. Speaking your mind is good, but speaking your mind in a caustic fashion doesn't help your cause. Especially when the issue is a complex domain-specific one (like the convoluted world of AV containers and codecs), and the vast majority of people are not going to understand the fine technical nuances of your argument.

maggit 17y ago

Assuming it is true, it still does not alter the fact that Ogg is a bad format. Being free from patents does not magically make Ogg a good choice as file format. If all the standard formats are indeed covered by patents, the only proper solution is to design a new, good format which is not, this time hopefully avoiding the old mistakes. Well, being free from patents can be a very good feature, and may very well make this the only -- and therefore best -- available choice. It might not be possible to make a good format to replace it exactly due to patents. Too many patents on obvious and necessary solutions exist. However, I don't know the specifics. I would have liked a similar discussion on the format which included patent concerns. Can anyone fill in? :)

sern 17y ago
Just because their authors say that doesn't mean that it's true. Worse still, no corporation is willing to perform a patent search because such an activity could open a liability should it be discovered that something they already use is covered by a patent they previously were unaware of. The fact is that it is extremely difficult to implement any multimedia application without running afoul of a patent. Rational developers will pick the safest option, and that is to license the MPEG patents, which (I believe) also offers submarine patent protection in that the MPEG-LA would be solely liable for not finding them earlier should trouble arise. The good news is that these patents are not enforceable worldwide, and the first of them should start expiring (if they haven't already) within the next few years.
- freetard 17y ago
  Theora is VP3+few well documented modifications. Youtube for years and still today used on2 codecs (through flash) which are all based on VP3 with optimization. If Theora and therefore VP3 were patent encumbered so would be all the codecs used by youtube, hulu, vimeo and all sites that use flash video. Now if I had a patent on vp3, would I be crazy enough to wait for theora to be successful in order to sue the hell out of everyone? Or would I have already been suing google, adobe and friends? That's what make patents in theora extremely unlikely IMO. That and the fact that theora devs are extremely cautious on the matter, this is also the reason why theora is not as good as it should be (avoiding patents at all price).

Avenger42 17y ago

Something I discovered by accident: in the "Final Words" section, if you mouse over the italic words "Ogg isn't bad, it's just different", they change to "Ogg isn't dead, it's just resting". I don't really understand the reason behind that.

maggit 17y ago
"* isn't dead, it's just resting" is a reference to Monty Python's famous Dead Parrot skit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vuW6tQ0218 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vuW6tQ0218 By this the author means that "Ogg isn't bad, it's just different" is essentially a lie, because the author means that Ogg is obviously bad.
- Avenger42 17y ago
  Aha. The reference passed over my head. Slightly too young for Monty Python to immediately spring to mind. (Now if it were a BtVS reference...) I did accept his premise of "not bad, just different" because he laid out his explanation below. Not catching the humor in the reference, I thought he was trying to lay out a broader "Ogg is dead" theme that I didn't see any support for.
doty 17y ago
Maybe it's just an easter ogg.

DarkShikari 17y ago

The biggest aggravation is the fact that we have a container that is: 1. Reasonably well-designed. 2. Patent-free with a dozen free implementations. 3. Widely-used, far more so than Ogg. 4. General, with the ability to contain nearly any video, audio, or subtitle format. 5. Fully-featured, with the ability to compete effectively with MP4 and other popular container formats. 6. Supported by DivX as the replacement for AVI. It's called Matroska. And practically everyone promoting Ogg pretends that it doesn't exist. My theory is that the difference is one of control. Having talked to many Ogg evangelists, this seems to be the problem: Matroska allows you to use video and audio formats that Xiph doesn't like. Ogg does not. Therefore, Ogg is "more free" because it doesn't let you do what you want. It's much the same argument as GPL vs BSD: the GPL is "more free" because it places more restrictions upon users/distributors of the software.

please 17y ago
does matroska work for streaming?
- DarkShikari 17y ago
  Yes. Matroska's index is optional, and thus one should be able to stream it simply by omitting the index. I suspect many existing implementations are suboptimal for streaming though simply because almost nobody uses it that way and so they have not been as tested as they otherwise would be. But this is easy to solve since the format itself already supports streaming.
  - please 17y ago
    is there a server and client that supports it? from http://www.matroska.org/technical/guides/faq/index.html http://www.matroska.org/technical/guides/faq/index.html Will Matroska be streamable? Yes, but low bitrate streaming like streaming Vorbis, will always be better in Ogg. This is because their design is for different purposes.
    - DarkShikari 17y ago

sliverstorm 17y ago

Oh god, it's like reading about LDAP all over again...