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Around 10 billion animals are killed each year in the United States. It's a truly astounding figure. Let's not kid ourselves that something unfathomably evil is

Around 10 billion animals are killed each year in the United States. It's a truly astounding figure. Let's not kid ourselves that something unfathomably evil is going on. It's great that some people get their animal products from the sustainable farm down the road. That is better. But let's also not pretend it even makes a dent. During World War II, about 70 million people were killed over the course of the conflict (1939-1945). In just the United States alone, we will kill that number of animals in less than three days. If you were to compare the entire loss of American life in that war, it would take you about 20 minutes to achieve in our factory farm system. If you still don't see it as evil, animal agriculture is far and away the number one source of global warming pollution (http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?newsID=20772&CR1=warning http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?newsID=20772&CR1=w...).

dmm 17y ago
Humans evolved eating meat. There is significant evidence that a diet high in meat and saturated fat rather than the neolithic agents sugar and grains is among the healthiest available. Why is killing animals to produce food for people an "unfathomably evil" thing?
- starkfist 17y ago
  There's actually no evidence for that position that was not produced by someone funded by a meat producer.
  - MikeTLive 17y ago
    I tire of these "prove me wrong" arguments. How about you prove yourself right? Show me that the evidence for that position was all produced by someone funded by a meat producer. This tactic of yours is frequently used by politicians and other extremist groups and I want to see it stopped. You get to be the first one. Start researching your position and prove to me that you are right.
    - starkfist 17y ago
      I realize I have a proof by exhaustion on my hands, so I guess you're right. I wouldn't worry about it too much, my original post will get downvoted into oblivion as soon as the weston price guys wake up.
      - sophacles 17y ago
        You are a fool. If you make a claim that demands proof by exhaustion, do not complain about that very fact when someone asks you to back it up.
        starkfist 17y ago
        I like your nick. Sophacles was one of my favorite philosaphers.
    - danielmims 17y ago
      How about this: you prove that eating meat is justifiable? That would be something.
      - danielmims 17y ago
        Voting me down for saying this: "How about this: you prove that eating meat is justifiable? That would be something." Whoever did it, you're realllly smart.
        danielmims 17y ago
        And again! I suppose some people don't believe they should have to justify themselves.
        ubernostrum 17y ago
        I just saw a bunch of comments basically screaming "YOU prove what YOU said! NO YUO!" back and forth, and downvoted all of you.
- jeremymims 17y ago
  Yes, humans evolved to eat some meat in their diets at points in time where other foods were scarce. This does not mean that meat is something we should eat often or as a primary source of food. And it does not mean that we can't survive without it. In addition to the incomparable suffering that animals who spend their entire lives in factory farms experience, a few good reasons are: 1. It is the number one cause of global warming 2. It's one of the main causes of deadly health problems in humans (heart disease, cancer, obesity related diseases). 3. It's a big reason why people go hungry. You can grow way more food to feed people through plant based agriculture. When you allocate land to meat production, you deprive people of food. 4. The reason why 60% of the rivers in America are classified as "impaired" due to runoff. There are lots more reasons if you look and I suggest you do. Just because we've done something for a long time doesn't mean we should keep doing it. Wouldn't you say that the conditions of the world have changed considerably since we were hunter-gatherers a few thousand years ago? Well, we need to evolve. The very best thing you can do for the planet, other humans, and yourself is to eat less meat.
- jeremymims 17y ago
  Perhaps you can easily wrap your head around the idea of killing 10 billion living creatures a year. I have a really hard time even imagining we're capable of being that efficient at killing. It's almost all from factory farming which you agreed in an earlier comment is "terrible". Maybe you wouldn't go so far as to say it's evil. I will. Everyday, science learns that humans aren't all that special in our capacity to feel pain, plan for the future, find enjoyment out of life, care for our offspring, etc. This is one of those issues where eventually we will all be horrified at what we allowed to happen. But any time that we make a judgement call that some being's suffering and untimely death is okay because it's lesser than us, that says more about us than it does about those beings. As a species, we've certainly been wrong about these things before.
- danielmims 17y ago
  Humans did not "evolve eating meat." Yes, they began to eat meat relatively recently, but only during winter periods after migrating into colder climates. Even then, humans ate almost no meat when plant food was abundant, during warmer seasons. Anatomically the case for human herbivorism, or at least heavy-plant omnivorism, is strong. Check it (I hope this formats okay): Meat-eaters: have claws Herbivores: no claws Humans: no claws Meat-eaters: have no skin pores and perspire through the tongue Herbivores: perspire through skin pores Humans: perspire through skin pores Meat-eaters: have sharp front teeth for tearing, with no flat molar teeth for grinding Herbivores: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding Humans: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding [we're talking about actually sharp teeth, not so-called human “canine” teeth] Meat-eaters: have intestinal tract that is only 3 times their body length so that rapidly decaying meat can pass through quickly Herbivores: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length. Humans: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length. Meat-eaters: have strong hydrochloric acid in stomach to digest meat Herbivores: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater Humans: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater Meat-eaters: salivary glands in mouth not needed to pre-digest grains and fruits. Herbivores: well-developed salivary glands which are necessary to pre-digest grains and fruits Humans: well-developed salivary glands, which are necessary to pre-digest, grains and fruits Meat-eaters: have acid saliva with no enzyme ptyalin to pre-digest grains Herbivores: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains Humans: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains Source: A.D. Andrews, Fit Food for Men, (Chicago: American Hygiene Society, 1970)
  - tedunangst 17y ago
    So humans don't have a single trait in common with predators? Humans don't have eyes in the front of their head for good depth perception? Or did you just pick a selection of facts to support one viewpoint and ignore anything that contradicts you?
    - danielmims 17y ago
      I'm obviously not saying humans don't have a single trait in common with some predators. Humans have blood, for example. Get over your indignation at being challenged and think about what you say. That'd be nice. To answer your question, these are simply the most clear-cut traits that are present in herbivores versus omnivores and carnivores. The "front-facing eyes" is an out-of-date meme from high school textbooks.
tcskeptic 17y ago
There are also 300 million people living in the US, another truly astounding figure. People eat meat, and have forever. Just because there are now more people around to eat meat now does not make the process of making meat (also called killing animals...) suddenly become evil. You can make an argument that factory farming methods are inhumane, and we can have a rational discussion. But your appeal to the magic of large numbers is meaningless to me, just because 10 billion animals get killed for food each year does not make it "unfathomably evil". (And also, you are going to compare loss of life in war to animals killed for meat.... Seriously?)
- jeremymims 17y ago
  For the record I'm not calling you evil. So this isn't an ad hominem attack... unless you're a factory farmer, in which case, you probably are. ;-) People eat more meat at more meals than they ever have in history. The truth is that it's unsustainable and it causes huge long term problems for our environment. The fact that we have always done it doesn't really matter. We know we can live without it and be healthy. The question is should we continue to do it and if so, at what cost? And as hackers, we might ask if there's a way around it. Comparing loss of human life in the deadliest war that humans have ever fought (where most of us have no problem labeling certain actors evil) perfectly illustrates the magnitude of the "magic" large numbers. The very best killing apparatus that war has ever seen is beat by factory farming in one country in 3 days. I find that to be truly incredible. Maybe you don't want to stop eating meat. But maybe you do care about some of the problems the world faces because of it (water shortages, global warming, human famine, rainforest depletion, run-off into other food and streams, mad cow or swine flu, etc). For many people this is a truly emotional issue. A judgement about factory farms feels like a judgement about themselves. I was once at a very expensive conference (like $2k a ticket) and after a speaker suggested that people cut their meat intake to solve some the world's problems about a 1/3 of the people got up and left. But most people who don't eat meat today did at one point in their lives. I'm part of a family that until I left college ate meat at every meal. It's not enough to say we're going to keep doing what we're doing because we've been doing it forever. As hackers and entrepreneurs we know that human behavior can change and we often try to be the ones who cause it. We don't happily accept the status quo. So why do so many of us readily do so when it comes to eating meat?

dmm 17y ago

Humans evolved eating meat. There is significant evidence that a diet high in meat and saturated fat rather than the neolithic agents sugar and grains is among the healthiest available. Why is killing animals to produce food for people an "unfathomably evil" thing?

starkfist 17y ago
There's actually no evidence for that position that was not produced by someone funded by a meat producer.
- MikeTLive 17y ago
  I tire of these "prove me wrong" arguments. How about you prove yourself right? Show me that the evidence for that position was all produced by someone funded by a meat producer. This tactic of yours is frequently used by politicians and other extremist groups and I want to see it stopped. You get to be the first one. Start researching your position and prove to me that you are right.
  - starkfist 17y ago
    I realize I have a proof by exhaustion on my hands, so I guess you're right. I wouldn't worry about it too much, my original post will get downvoted into oblivion as soon as the weston price guys wake up.
    - sophacles 17y ago
      You are a fool. If you make a claim that demands proof by exhaustion, do not complain about that very fact when someone asks you to back it up.
      - starkfist 17y ago
        I like your nick. Sophacles was one of my favorite philosaphers.
  - danielmims 17y ago
    How about this: you prove that eating meat is justifiable? That would be something.
    - danielmims 17y ago
      Voting me down for saying this: "How about this: you prove that eating meat is justifiable? That would be something." Whoever did it, you're realllly smart.
      - danielmims 17y ago
        And again! I suppose some people don't believe they should have to justify themselves.
        ubernostrum 17y ago
        I just saw a bunch of comments basically screaming "YOU prove what YOU said! NO YUO!" back and forth, and downvoted all of you.
jeremymims 17y ago
Yes, humans evolved to eat some meat in their diets at points in time where other foods were scarce. This does not mean that meat is something we should eat often or as a primary source of food. And it does not mean that we can't survive without it. In addition to the incomparable suffering that animals who spend their entire lives in factory farms experience, a few good reasons are: 1. It is the number one cause of global warming 2. It's one of the main causes of deadly health problems in humans (heart disease, cancer, obesity related diseases). 3. It's a big reason why people go hungry. You can grow way more food to feed people through plant based agriculture. When you allocate land to meat production, you deprive people of food. 4. The reason why 60% of the rivers in America are classified as "impaired" due to runoff. There are lots more reasons if you look and I suggest you do. Just because we've done something for a long time doesn't mean we should keep doing it. Wouldn't you say that the conditions of the world have changed considerably since we were hunter-gatherers a few thousand years ago? Well, we need to evolve. The very best thing you can do for the planet, other humans, and yourself is to eat less meat.
jeremymims 17y ago
Perhaps you can easily wrap your head around the idea of killing 10 billion living creatures a year. I have a really hard time even imagining we're capable of being that efficient at killing. It's almost all from factory farming which you agreed in an earlier comment is "terrible". Maybe you wouldn't go so far as to say it's evil. I will. Everyday, science learns that humans aren't all that special in our capacity to feel pain, plan for the future, find enjoyment out of life, care for our offspring, etc. This is one of those issues where eventually we will all be horrified at what we allowed to happen. But any time that we make a judgement call that some being's suffering and untimely death is okay because it's lesser than us, that says more about us than it does about those beings. As a species, we've certainly been wrong about these things before.
danielmims 17y ago
Humans did not "evolve eating meat." Yes, they began to eat meat relatively recently, but only during winter periods after migrating into colder climates. Even then, humans ate almost no meat when plant food was abundant, during warmer seasons. Anatomically the case for human herbivorism, or at least heavy-plant omnivorism, is strong. Check it (I hope this formats okay): Meat-eaters: have claws Herbivores: no claws Humans: no claws Meat-eaters: have no skin pores and perspire through the tongue Herbivores: perspire through skin pores Humans: perspire through skin pores Meat-eaters: have sharp front teeth for tearing, with no flat molar teeth for grinding Herbivores: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding Humans: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding [we're talking about actually sharp teeth, not so-called human “canine” teeth] Meat-eaters: have intestinal tract that is only 3 times their body length so that rapidly decaying meat can pass through quickly Herbivores: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length. Humans: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length. Meat-eaters: have strong hydrochloric acid in stomach to digest meat Herbivores: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater Humans: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater Meat-eaters: salivary glands in mouth not needed to pre-digest grains and fruits. Herbivores: well-developed salivary glands which are necessary to pre-digest grains and fruits Humans: well-developed salivary glands, which are necessary to pre-digest, grains and fruits Meat-eaters: have acid saliva with no enzyme ptyalin to pre-digest grains Herbivores: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains Humans: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains Source: A.D. Andrews, Fit Food for Men, (Chicago: American Hygiene Society, 1970)
- tedunangst 17y ago
  So humans don't have a single trait in common with predators? Humans don't have eyes in the front of their head for good depth perception? Or did you just pick a selection of facts to support one viewpoint and ignore anything that contradicts you?
  - danielmims 17y ago
    I'm obviously not saying humans don't have a single trait in common with some predators. Humans have blood, for example. Get over your indignation at being challenged and think about what you say. That'd be nice. To answer your question, these are simply the most clear-cut traits that are present in herbivores versus omnivores and carnivores. The "front-facing eyes" is an out-of-date meme from high school textbooks.

tcskeptic 17y ago

There are also 300 million people living in the US, another truly astounding figure. People eat meat, and have forever. Just because there are now more people around to eat meat now does not make the process of making meat (also called killing animals...) suddenly become evil. You can make an argument that factory farming methods are inhumane, and we can have a rational discussion. But your appeal to the magic of large numbers is meaningless to me, just because 10 billion animals get killed for food each year does not make it "unfathomably evil". (And also, you are going to compare loss of life in war to animals killed for meat.... Seriously?)

jeremymims 17y ago
For the record I'm not calling you evil. So this isn't an ad hominem attack... unless you're a factory farmer, in which case, you probably are. ;-) People eat more meat at more meals than they ever have in history. The truth is that it's unsustainable and it causes huge long term problems for our environment. The fact that we have always done it doesn't really matter. We know we can live without it and be healthy. The question is should we continue to do it and if so, at what cost? And as hackers, we might ask if there's a way around it. Comparing loss of human life in the deadliest war that humans have ever fought (where most of us have no problem labeling certain actors evil) perfectly illustrates the magnitude of the "magic" large numbers. The very best killing apparatus that war has ever seen is beat by factory farming in one country in 3 days. I find that to be truly incredible. Maybe you don't want to stop eating meat. But maybe you do care about some of the problems the world faces because of it (water shortages, global warming, human famine, rainforest depletion, run-off into other food and streams, mad cow or swine flu, etc). For many people this is a truly emotional issue. A judgement about factory farms feels like a judgement about themselves. I was once at a very expensive conference (like $2k a ticket) and after a speaker suggested that people cut their meat intake to solve some the world's problems about a 1/3 of the people got up and left. But most people who don't eat meat today did at one point in their lives. I'm part of a family that until I left college ate meat at every meal. It's not enough to say we're going to keep doing what we're doing because we've been doing it forever. As hackers and entrepreneurs we know that human behavior can change and we often try to be the ones who cause it. We don't happily accept the status quo. So why do so many of us readily do so when it comes to eating meat?