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buzzword filled click-bait. :/ just use your brain. agile is only a problem when people follow it religiously instead of intelligently imo. its just one tool

by jheriko 10y ago

buzzword filled click-bait. :/ just use your brain. agile is only a problem when people follow it religiously instead of intelligently imo. its just one tool in the box, not the ultimate methodology.

aivosha 10y ago
100% agree
smoyer 10y ago
I totally agree ... Don't waste your time reading this article. And if you ever have the opportunity to write an article yourself, remember one simple thing - if you're going to write several hundred words of content, you should try to tell your target audience something they don't know!
scolfax 10y ago
Agreed. But feel compelled to add: Agile is only a problem when teams pretend to follow it but actually don't.
- jheriko 10y ago
  I'd prefer to say "misinterpret" than pretend to follow... but even so, following it as presented to its totality is still going to be sub-par. Some of the points in the Agile manifesto are just arrogant, unjustified statements of fact or vague and useless comments. Some people hate face-to-face interaction... and what the hell is a 'regular interval'... and sometimes a clear vision and direction from above achieves the very greatest of results that the team without it would have failed to produce. Its not useless, but its not without fault either.
- p4wnc6 10y ago
  When everyone misuses a tool, it's the tool's fault. And everybody misuses Agile.
  - jheriko 10y ago
    some over quoted thing about bad workmen comes to mind... i prefer to think that a master craftsman is one who can take any tools and materials and use them to produce good work... if not exceptional.
    - p4wnc6 10y ago
      But why would you ever intentionally use (or vigorously defend) demonstrably bad tools? Just because you could do well with a bad tool doesn't mean you should or that you couldn't do better with easy-to-get other, better tools. If you are forced to use an inferior tool like Agile, then sure, you want to make the best of it and be a craftsman who can still succeed. That is an endorsement of being adaptable and self-reliant as an engineer, not an endorsement of Agile. And if a tool is bad like Agile, it's useful to point it out and slowly steer the bureaucracy that feeds it into bastardizing whatever the next tool is, but hopefully inching forward to a better global state as well.
    - tonyarkles 10y ago
      Sure, and I agree to a large extent, but if I'm doing woodworking and my blades are so fragile that they snap with the tiniest amount of friction, I'm probably not going to be very happy working like that for very long.
    - hinkley 10y ago
      That is not what "a poor craftsman" means. Doing awesome things with primitive tools is a parlor trick. Grandstanding. The craftsman blames themself for using the wrong tool for the job, not the tool.
- jacques_chester 10y ago
  I'm an XP fan, but I'm always wary of saying "they didn't do real agile". It can descend into "No True Agile" pretty quickly, with a dash of victim-blaming. Agile is actually hard to get to grips with. It requires lots of discipline. So did the pre-agile methods that worked best. And it gets half-done for the same reason that the pre-agile methods got half-done. It's hard. Hard to do, hard to learn, tempting to stop.
  - Karunamon 10y ago
    Perhaps, but one problem often seen in large orgs (I've been there personally twice, and heard many more stories from close colleagues) is that they adopt the agile methodology (sprints, stories, etc), without adopting the culture shift (shit does not get added into the middle of a sprint, ever) necessary to make it work. Agile process without agile culture objectively isn't True Agile. It's worse than everything it sets out to solve with the alternatives.
    - jacques_chester 10y ago
      I disagree that Scrum is the whole of agile, so the concept of "sprints" doesn't exist for me. If the product manager wants to rearrange stories, that is his or her business. My business is advising on the relative complexity of stories and then undertaking to deliver the next story in the backlog. The roles are well-defined, after which, we talk to each other like we're adults trying to achieve the best outcome for everyone. Putting aside that particular nitpick, it's easy to cargo-cult the practices. I sometimes use the analogy of the introduction of lean manufacturing in the US. At first what was introduced were the tools: boards, line-stoppages etc. But tools are just tools, by themselves they're not enough. The uncomfortable, expensive and difficult truth in our industry is that people, process and tooling are not substitutable. You need the best of all three that you can get.
jcrites 10y ago
There's "Agile", the buzzword that all sorts of advice-givers have capitalized on commercially, and then there's the Agile Manifesto [1]. The Agile Manifesto has merit and is a set of values, not a methodology - it would precisely agree with your advice to chiefly "use your brain". It's unfortunate that the latter has been turned into a Frankenstein's Monster of the former. [1] http://agilemanifesto.org/ http://agilemanifesto.org/
- jheriko 10y ago
  I hate to disagree since you support me, but thats not true. The agile manifesto has plenty of problems that should be obvious with some thinking. Some of the statements are outright ludicrous and naive as much as others are valuable insights (but even then, only if you haven't thought about the problem very much and tried to approach it in reality). I shipped software very quickly before learning much about agile at all... I ship it even faster afterwards, but not because I agree with it all... in fact I am convinced I am better off for ignoring the more harmful aspects and selectively choosing the ones that have a measurable benefit.
  - jcrites 10y ago
    > The agile manifesto has plenty of problems that should be obvious with some thinking. Some of the statements are outright ludicrous and naive as much as others are valuable insights Are we talking about the same document? What are the problems and harmful aspects that you're referring to? (Please quote the relevant part) This comment feels either a bit like a content-free middlebrow dismissal, or we're referring to different documents.
    - jheriko 10y ago
      http://agilemanifesto.org/ http://agilemanifesto.org/ http://agilemanifesto.org/principles.html http://agilemanifesto.org/principles.html From the very first. > Individuals and interactions over processes and tools Have you seen this in practice and experienced how people work day-to-day? Leave them to their own devices and it varies a lot by personality. Some people need micro-management for instance... there is also thing that process is very important, and this point is self contradictory given that a lot of the agile manifest essentially describes process or a strategy for creating one... and as for ever relegating the importance of good tools.... ick. ? (p.s. thanks for calling it out, its good to take these things seriously imo. its shows passion and care. :) )
spriggan3 10y ago
Well it's working, it's on top of HN. The problem is the people clicking in the end. I didn't, cause I know with a title like that this gona be some cheap clickbait.
- morgante 10y ago
  No, the problem is the 140+ people who apparently thought this buzzword-filled fluff was worth upvoting.

by jheriko 10y ago

buzzword filled click-bait. :/ just use your brain. agile is only a problem when people follow it religiously instead of intelligently imo. its just one tool in the box, not the ultimate methodology.

aivosha 10y ago

100% agree

smoyer 10y ago

I totally agree ... Don't waste your time reading this article. And if you ever have the opportunity to write an article yourself, remember one simple thing - if you're going to write several hundred words of content, you should try to tell your target audience something they don't know!

scolfax 10y ago

Agreed. But feel compelled to add: Agile is only a problem when teams pretend to follow it but actually don't.

jheriko 10y ago
I'd prefer to say "misinterpret" than pretend to follow... but even so, following it as presented to its totality is still going to be sub-par. Some of the points in the Agile manifesto are just arrogant, unjustified statements of fact or vague and useless comments. Some people hate face-to-face interaction... and what the hell is a 'regular interval'... and sometimes a clear vision and direction from above achieves the very greatest of results that the team without it would have failed to produce. Its not useless, but its not without fault either.
p4wnc6 10y ago
When everyone misuses a tool, it's the tool's fault. And everybody misuses Agile.
- jheriko 10y ago
  some over quoted thing about bad workmen comes to mind... i prefer to think that a master craftsman is one who can take any tools and materials and use them to produce good work... if not exceptional.
  - p4wnc6 10y ago
    But why would you ever intentionally use (or vigorously defend) demonstrably bad tools? Just because you could do well with a bad tool doesn't mean you should or that you couldn't do better with easy-to-get other, better tools. If you are forced to use an inferior tool like Agile, then sure, you want to make the best of it and be a craftsman who can still succeed. That is an endorsement of being adaptable and self-reliant as an engineer, not an endorsement of Agile. And if a tool is bad like Agile, it's useful to point it out and slowly steer the bureaucracy that feeds it into bastardizing whatever the next tool is, but hopefully inching forward to a better global state as well.
  - tonyarkles 10y ago
    Sure, and I agree to a large extent, but if I'm doing woodworking and my blades are so fragile that they snap with the tiniest amount of friction, I'm probably not going to be very happy working like that for very long.
  - hinkley 10y ago
    That is not what "a poor craftsman" means. Doing awesome things with primitive tools is a parlor trick. Grandstanding. The craftsman blames themself for using the wrong tool for the job, not the tool.
jacques_chester 10y ago
I'm an XP fan, but I'm always wary of saying "they didn't do real agile". It can descend into "No True Agile" pretty quickly, with a dash of victim-blaming. Agile is actually hard to get to grips with. It requires lots of discipline. So did the pre-agile methods that worked best. And it gets half-done for the same reason that the pre-agile methods got half-done. It's hard. Hard to do, hard to learn, tempting to stop.
- Karunamon 10y ago
  Perhaps, but one problem often seen in large orgs (I've been there personally twice, and heard many more stories from close colleagues) is that they adopt the agile methodology (sprints, stories, etc), without adopting the culture shift (shit does not get added into the middle of a sprint, ever) necessary to make it work. Agile process without agile culture objectively isn't True Agile. It's worse than everything it sets out to solve with the alternatives.
  - jacques_chester 10y ago
    I disagree that Scrum is the whole of agile, so the concept of "sprints" doesn't exist for me. If the product manager wants to rearrange stories, that is his or her business. My business is advising on the relative complexity of stories and then undertaking to deliver the next story in the backlog. The roles are well-defined, after which, we talk to each other like we're adults trying to achieve the best outcome for everyone. Putting aside that particular nitpick, it's easy to cargo-cult the practices. I sometimes use the analogy of the introduction of lean manufacturing in the US. At first what was introduced were the tools: boards, line-stoppages etc. But tools are just tools, by themselves they're not enough. The uncomfortable, expensive and difficult truth in our industry is that people, process and tooling are not substitutable. You need the best of all three that you can get.

jcrites 10y ago

There's "Agile", the buzzword that all sorts of advice-givers have capitalized on commercially, and then there's the Agile Manifesto [1]. The Agile Manifesto has merit and is a set of values, not a methodology - it would precisely agree with your advice to chiefly "use your brain". It's unfortunate that the latter has been turned into a Frankenstein's Monster of the former. [1] http://agilemanifesto.org/ http://agilemanifesto.org/

jheriko 10y ago
I hate to disagree since you support me, but thats not true. The agile manifesto has plenty of problems that should be obvious with some thinking. Some of the statements are outright ludicrous and naive as much as others are valuable insights (but even then, only if you haven't thought about the problem very much and tried to approach it in reality). I shipped software very quickly before learning much about agile at all... I ship it even faster afterwards, but not because I agree with it all... in fact I am convinced I am better off for ignoring the more harmful aspects and selectively choosing the ones that have a measurable benefit.
- jcrites 10y ago
  > The agile manifesto has plenty of problems that should be obvious with some thinking. Some of the statements are outright ludicrous and naive as much as others are valuable insights Are we talking about the same document? What are the problems and harmful aspects that you're referring to? (Please quote the relevant part) This comment feels either a bit like a content-free middlebrow dismissal, or we're referring to different documents.
  - jheriko 10y ago
    http://agilemanifesto.org/ http://agilemanifesto.org/ http://agilemanifesto.org/principles.html http://agilemanifesto.org/principles.html From the very first. > Individuals and interactions over processes and tools Have you seen this in practice and experienced how people work day-to-day? Leave them to their own devices and it varies a lot by personality. Some people need micro-management for instance... there is also thing that process is very important, and this point is self contradictory given that a lot of the agile manifest essentially describes process or a strategy for creating one... and as for ever relegating the importance of good tools.... ick. ? (p.s. thanks for calling it out, its good to take these things seriously imo. its shows passion and care. :) )

spriggan3 10y ago

Well it's working, it's on top of HN. The problem is the people clicking in the end. I didn't, cause I know with a title like that this gona be some cheap clickbait.

morgante 10y ago
No, the problem is the 140+ people who apparently thought this buzzword-filled fluff was worth upvoting.