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From the article: Ultimately, the students said that because the Department of Homeland Security’s website certified the University of Northern New Jersey, the

From the article: Ultimately, the students said that because the Department of Homeland Security’s website certified the University of Northern New Jersey, they believed the institution was legitimate. In addition, the website of the New Jersey Education Department listed it as approved. So did the website of the Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges, a national body. It's easy to think "Oh, those students knew they were being duped, they knew what they were getting into"- but if you're coming from another country with a completely different way of doing things, and this university which appears to be accredited AND have the blessing of the US Government pops up going "Apply here and we'll give you a visa, you don't have to go to class and we promise it's above-board"... I don't think that's going to immediately register as a scam. Odd, maybe, but then you see they're accredited and you think "well if it was a scam they wouldn't have accreditation."

actionwords 10y ago
No, these people were actively looking to scam the system in order to work in the united states. they weren't looking for an accredited education. they were looking for a place to get them student visas so they could 'legally' enter and work in the united states.
dsp1234 10y ago
The flip side of this is: “All purported students are recorded at some point or another fully going along with the pay-to-stay scheme.” There are both audio and video recordings from the president’s office in New Jersey, when students called or visited, Mr. Phillips said. He personally witnessed some of these exchanges, and heard students admit they knew the university would not have classes. If that's true, then it's going to be hard to convince a judge that the student thought it wasn't a scam. Clear evidence of the student agreeing to attend the university even though it would never host a class is hard to refute.
- bovermyer 10y ago
  But if this "university" was a government-run thing, isn't that entrapment?
  - trentmb 10y ago
    If it wasn't government run, and they would have still 'enrolled' anyway, no.
    - kristjansson 10y ago
      Though arguably, if it wasn't 'accredited', many of the students probably wouldn't have enrolled, and it was only accredited 'to cooperate with the government's investigation'...
  - gozur88 10y ago
    Entrapment is only a defense when the cops induce you to do something that you wouldn't have done anyway. They're going to have a hard time using the entrapment defense if they deliberately searched out a university that clearly wasn't in the business of teaching students.
- aplusbi 10y ago
  If I were in their shoes, I would find the university very suspect, and possibly unethical. But if I saw that they were an accredited university and certified by DHS, I'd assume that they were exploiting a legal loophole.
  - themartorana 10y ago
    Not to mention as above did, that they were promised credits for work experience, which is common at colleges, and removes the idea of "no classes" as a red flag if your workplace is considered a classroom.
- fucking_tragedy 10y ago
  This is a claim by the prosecution and doesn't necessarily reflect the reality of the situation.
- mmanfrin 10y ago
  According to some students, brokers assured them that they could immediately earn credit hours for their work experience in a program called Curricular Practical Training, without taking classes 'Work Experience', 'Internships', this sort of work-for-credit system exists on every major college campus in the US. Is it inconceivable that you can see people talking about such things and consider not going explicitly to a class as still being above board?
aclimatt 10y ago
Absolutely. It was downright sinister of the DHS to implicate the students in this when they themselves legitimized the school in no less than three different places. To quote the article, "if you can't trust the government, who can you trust?" I understand what the government says by "you have to know the law", but it's idiocy to expect everyone to be a lawyer, and instead we all use our best judgement. Maybe the signs were clear that UNNJ were fake, maybe they weren't, but fraud implies a knowing and willful attempt to break the law, and almost all of these cases seem far from it. It's shameful to make most of these students appear in immigration court.
- danso 10y ago
  Yeah, it's hard to think of an analogous scheme. It'd be as if in "To Catch a Predator", the state legislature's website was altered temporarily to lower the age of consent.
  - csours 10y ago
    Or if there was online verification of your date's driver's license that was faked to show she was of legal age, solely to entrap you.
  - mfoy_ 10y ago
    It'd be like if you go to another country and the government there tells you the age of consent is 16 and you meet a girl who claims to be 24. You've seen her government issued ID and it says she is 24. Then it turns out she is actually 17 and the age of consent is actually 18 and it was all an elaborate ruse to catch you-- you sexual deviant!
    - pessimizer 10y ago
      It's more like if you go to a service that promises to provide 13 year old girls, but with legitimate ID that says that they're 18. This was a school that guaranteed that you wouldn't have to attend a school.
- x5n1 10y ago
cortesoft 10y ago
If it was so obvious that it wasn't legitimate, then how come the NJED was fooled?
- danso 10y ago
  They may have been part of the scheme, such as when the 5-star hotel agrees to host cops running a prostitution sting.
  - emodendroket 10y ago
    That seems a little different.
- ianhawes 10y ago
  From the article: So did the website of the Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges, a national body. Its director, Michale S. McComis, later said he had certified the university in order to cooperate with the government’s investigation.
outworlder 10y ago
> According to some students, brokers assured them that they could immediately earn credit hours for their work experience in a program called Curricular Practical Training, without taking classes. Now, this crosses the line, IMHO. You see, getting credit for work experiences at universities is not unheard of, where I come from. At least for undergraduate level. It is very easy to convince someone that it's the same deal. > Most of the students were from China and India, where working with brokers is a familiar way of doing business. But in retrospect, they seem to have ignored what should have been red flags, whether because they were overly trusting, willfully ignorant or willing participants in visa fraud. Well, isn't this the definition of scam? It is likely that some of them caught on and decided to go through anyway. But I'd guess that a higher percentage were just preyed on on their naiveté.
- baby 10y ago
  > whether because they were overly trusting, willfully ignorant or willing participants in visa fraud or just frustrated with that shitty visa system.
pessimizer 10y ago
Out of all of the schools in the United States, they paid a premium to go to one that didn't have any classes. Whether or not they knew that wasn't the intent of a student visa, I 1) believe they should have known, and 2) believe at the least that they've made it clear that they aren't interested in studying in the US. They can find a equivalent curriculum which offers no classes and no instruction anywhere in the world; I offer one for free.

actionwords 10y ago

No, these people were actively looking to scam the system in order to work in the united states. they weren't looking for an accredited education. they were looking for a place to get them student visas so they could 'legally' enter and work in the united states.

dsp1234 10y ago

The flip side of this is: “All purported students are recorded at some point or another fully going along with the pay-to-stay scheme.” There are both audio and video recordings from the president’s office in New Jersey, when students called or visited, Mr. Phillips said. He personally witnessed some of these exchanges, and heard students admit they knew the university would not have classes. If that's true, then it's going to be hard to convince a judge that the student thought it wasn't a scam. Clear evidence of the student agreeing to attend the university even though it would never host a class is hard to refute.

bovermyer 10y ago
But if this "university" was a government-run thing, isn't that entrapment?
- trentmb 10y ago
  If it wasn't government run, and they would have still 'enrolled' anyway, no.
  - kristjansson 10y ago
    Though arguably, if it wasn't 'accredited', many of the students probably wouldn't have enrolled, and it was only accredited 'to cooperate with the government's investigation'...
- gozur88 10y ago
  Entrapment is only a defense when the cops induce you to do something that you wouldn't have done anyway. They're going to have a hard time using the entrapment defense if they deliberately searched out a university that clearly wasn't in the business of teaching students.
aplusbi 10y ago
If I were in their shoes, I would find the university very suspect, and possibly unethical. But if I saw that they were an accredited university and certified by DHS, I'd assume that they were exploiting a legal loophole.
- themartorana 10y ago
  Not to mention as above did, that they were promised credits for work experience, which is common at colleges, and removes the idea of "no classes" as a red flag if your workplace is considered a classroom.
fucking_tragedy 10y ago
This is a claim by the prosecution and doesn't necessarily reflect the reality of the situation.
mmanfrin 10y ago
According to some students, brokers assured them that they could immediately earn credit hours for their work experience in a program called Curricular Practical Training, without taking classes 'Work Experience', 'Internships', this sort of work-for-credit system exists on every major college campus in the US. Is it inconceivable that you can see people talking about such things and consider not going explicitly to a class as still being above board?

aclimatt 10y ago

Absolutely. It was downright sinister of the DHS to implicate the students in this when they themselves legitimized the school in no less than three different places. To quote the article, "if you can't trust the government, who can you trust?" I understand what the government says by "you have to know the law", but it's idiocy to expect everyone to be a lawyer, and instead we all use our best judgement. Maybe the signs were clear that UNNJ were fake, maybe they weren't, but fraud implies a knowing and willful attempt to break the law, and almost all of these cases seem far from it. It's shameful to make most of these students appear in immigration court.

danso 10y ago
Yeah, it's hard to think of an analogous scheme. It'd be as if in "To Catch a Predator", the state legislature's website was altered temporarily to lower the age of consent.
- csours 10y ago
  Or if there was online verification of your date's driver's license that was faked to show she was of legal age, solely to entrap you.
- mfoy_ 10y ago
  It'd be like if you go to another country and the government there tells you the age of consent is 16 and you meet a girl who claims to be 24. You've seen her government issued ID and it says she is 24. Then it turns out she is actually 17 and the age of consent is actually 18 and it was all an elaborate ruse to catch you-- you sexual deviant!
  - pessimizer 10y ago
    It's more like if you go to a service that promises to provide 13 year old girls, but with legitimate ID that says that they're 18. This was a school that guaranteed that you wouldn't have to attend a school.
x5n1 10y ago

cortesoft 10y ago

If it was so obvious that it wasn't legitimate, then how come the NJED was fooled?

danso 10y ago
They may have been part of the scheme, such as when the 5-star hotel agrees to host cops running a prostitution sting.
- emodendroket 10y ago
  That seems a little different.
ianhawes 10y ago
From the article: So did the website of the Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges, a national body. Its director, Michale S. McComis, later said he had certified the university in order to cooperate with the government’s investigation.

outworlder 10y ago

> According to some students, brokers assured them that they could immediately earn credit hours for their work experience in a program called Curricular Practical Training, without taking classes. Now, this crosses the line, IMHO. You see, getting credit for work experiences at universities is not unheard of, where I come from. At least for undergraduate level. It is very easy to convince someone that it's the same deal. > Most of the students were from China and India, where working with brokers is a familiar way of doing business. But in retrospect, they seem to have ignored what should have been red flags, whether because they were overly trusting, willfully ignorant or willing participants in visa fraud. Well, isn't this the definition of scam? It is likely that some of them caught on and decided to go through anyway. But I'd guess that a higher percentage were just preyed on on their naiveté.

baby 10y ago
> whether because they were overly trusting, willfully ignorant or willing participants in visa fraud or just frustrated with that shitty visa system.

pessimizer 10y ago

Out of all of the schools in the United States, they paid a premium to go to one that didn't have any classes. Whether or not they knew that wasn't the intent of a student visa, I 1) believe they should have known, and 2) believe at the least that they've made it clear that they aren't interested in studying in the US. They can find a equivalent curriculum which offers no classes and no instruction anywhere in the world; I offer one for free.