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> There are a lot more people hooked on nicotine than before? Is there evidence you can cite for that? I said "who weren't before", i.e., there are new nicotin

> There are a lot more people hooked on nicotine than before? Is there evidence you can cite for that? I said "who weren't before", i.e., there are new nicotine addicts who became addicted through e-cig usage (and probably would not have become addicted otherwise.) I did not say, and I doubt, that there are more nicotine addicts than before given the general downward trend in smoking. I generally see two types of people vaping or using e-cigs: middle schoolers and smokers who want an additional fix, often in places they aren't allowed to smoke - for some reason a huge number of vapers, etc. think that no-smoking rules don't apply to them. I've seen people get violent over being asked to stop vaping in a no-smoking area twice.

tptacek 11y ago
Can you present data to back this up? I would be surprised to learn that it was true. Middle schoolers, for instance, can get cigarettes even more easily than they can e-cigs†, and while vaping indoors was pretty common a couple years ago, it's been more than a year since I saw anyone do it in Chicago. I guess I'm saying: I'm really skeptical of your claim that e-cigarettes are introducing more people to smoking. Cigarettes already do a pretty amazing job of introducing people to smoking. † As the parent of someone who was a middle schooler just last year, let me add that I would be flabbergasted to see one of them vaping, but not entirely surprised to see them with a cigarette. If I saw a teenager vaping, "tobacco" would not be my first guess as to the intoxicant involved.
- Amezarak 11y ago
  > Can you present data to back this up? I framed it the way I did because all I have is anecdotes. When I say "a lot of people are addicted to nicotine that weren't before" this is substantiated by my personal knowledge of around three dozen individuals. > I'm really skeptical of your claim that e-cigarettes are introducing more people to smoking. There are more than three hundred million people in the US. E-cigs are a multibillion dollar industry. It would be astonishing if there was no one introduced to nicotine by e-cigs. > vaping indoors was pretty common a couple years ago, it's been more than a year since I saw anyone do it in Chicago. > As the parent of someone who was a middle schooler just last year, let me add that I would be flabbergasted to see one of them vaping, Some of this is probably cultural. I've never been to Chicago, but Chicago friends tell me that people are generally much health-focused in Chicago. I live in a southern rural area, and from what a teacher friend tells me and from my own observation, about a third of local middle schoolers vape. I can definitely believe this is an outlier, but even that's too much, in my opinion, considering it didn't have to be that way. There are much fewer smokers, and that's been about constant.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    "Chicago friends tell me that people are generally much health-focused in Chicago". This city is practically made of sausage. Its official vegetable is bacon. I'm sure someone, somewhere has gotten hooked on nicotine by way of e-cigarettes, but it's nowhere close to cigarettes. A 12 year old can get a pack of cigarettes and hand them out to their friends. Try that with one of those dorky e-cig pens.
    - Amezarak 11y ago
      If we assume that childhood obesity is a reasonable proxy for health, then Chicago is healthier than my state: 25% vs 31%. [1] [2] (I use state because nobody is publishing statistics on the local level.) > Try that with one of those dorky e-cig pens. They just pass them around if someone doesn't have one. [1] http://www.cityofchicago.org/content/dam/city/depts/cdph/CDPH/OverweightObesityReportFeb272013.pdf http://www.cityofchicago.org/content/dam/city/depts/cdph/CDP... [2] http://msdh.ms.gov/msdhsite/_static/resources/3593.pdf http://msdh.ms.gov/msdhsite/_static/resources/3593.pdf
      - tptacek 11y ago
        They really don't.
        Amezarak 11y ago
        I'm not speculating. I'm telling you what I see daily in front of the school.
        tptacek 11y ago
        I remain skeptical. I did some research, and the reports I found suggest that e-cig usage among teenagers is rare relative to cigarettes, and that most teenage e-cig users are former cigarette smokers. And again, as a parent of two children in roughly this age group, what you're saying you see every day conflicts with my own experience. I think you're wrong about the general argument you're trying to make about e-cigarettes.
collyw 11y ago
Smoking an vaping are different. Why should no smoking rules apply to vaping?
- throwanem 11y ago
  Because I don't want to breathe your diacetyl and propylene glycol mist any more than you want to breathe my cigarette smoke.
  - throwaway160303 11y ago
    I'm with you, and I also don't want to breathe the halitosis-infused mist expelled by my coworkers. Seems reasonable to me to have some legislation on the books to require people who work in a shared workplace to brush their teeth.
  - jrockway 11y ago
    So are you also banning asthmatics from using their inhaler in public? You're getting secondhand propylene glycol from them too! I don't smoke or vape, but I really don't see why vaping is so unpopular. Is it just "drugs are bad" again? I again don't get it, as nobody complains about seeing people drinking coffee in public. As far as I can tell, caffeine and nicotine are similar drugs with different delivery mechanisms. Except nobody is worried about high school students getting hooked on caffeine from flavored coffee beverages.
    - throwanem 11y ago
      When asthmatics start leaving thick, persistent clouds of inhaler mist behind them as they walk, you'll have a point there.
      - jrockway 11y ago
        I guess if you want to pollute, you have to make the pollution invisible, like cars do.
  - 11y ago

tptacek 11y ago

Can you present data to back this up? I would be surprised to learn that it was true. Middle schoolers, for instance, can get cigarettes even more easily than they can e-cigs†, and while vaping indoors was pretty common a couple years ago, it's been more than a year since I saw anyone do it in Chicago. I guess I'm saying: I'm really skeptical of your claim that e-cigarettes are introducing more people to smoking. Cigarettes already do a pretty amazing job of introducing people to smoking. † As the parent of someone who was a middle schooler just last year, let me add that I would be flabbergasted to see one of them vaping, but not entirely surprised to see them with a cigarette. If I saw a teenager vaping, "tobacco" would not be my first guess as to the intoxicant involved.

Amezarak 11y ago
> Can you present data to back this up? I framed it the way I did because all I have is anecdotes. When I say "a lot of people are addicted to nicotine that weren't before" this is substantiated by my personal knowledge of around three dozen individuals. > I'm really skeptical of your claim that e-cigarettes are introducing more people to smoking. There are more than three hundred million people in the US. E-cigs are a multibillion dollar industry. It would be astonishing if there was no one introduced to nicotine by e-cigs. > vaping indoors was pretty common a couple years ago, it's been more than a year since I saw anyone do it in Chicago. > As the parent of someone who was a middle schooler just last year, let me add that I would be flabbergasted to see one of them vaping, Some of this is probably cultural. I've never been to Chicago, but Chicago friends tell me that people are generally much health-focused in Chicago. I live in a southern rural area, and from what a teacher friend tells me and from my own observation, about a third of local middle schoolers vape. I can definitely believe this is an outlier, but even that's too much, in my opinion, considering it didn't have to be that way. There are much fewer smokers, and that's been about constant.
- tptacek 11y ago
  "Chicago friends tell me that people are generally much health-focused in Chicago". This city is practically made of sausage. Its official vegetable is bacon. I'm sure someone, somewhere has gotten hooked on nicotine by way of e-cigarettes, but it's nowhere close to cigarettes. A 12 year old can get a pack of cigarettes and hand them out to their friends. Try that with one of those dorky e-cig pens.
  - Amezarak 11y ago
    If we assume that childhood obesity is a reasonable proxy for health, then Chicago is healthier than my state: 25% vs 31%. [1] [2] (I use state because nobody is publishing statistics on the local level.) > Try that with one of those dorky e-cig pens. They just pass them around if someone doesn't have one. [1] http://www.cityofchicago.org/content/dam/city/depts/cdph/CDPH/OverweightObesityReportFeb272013.pdf http://www.cityofchicago.org/content/dam/city/depts/cdph/CDP... [2] http://msdh.ms.gov/msdhsite/_static/resources/3593.pdf http://msdh.ms.gov/msdhsite/_static/resources/3593.pdf
    - tptacek 11y ago
      They really don't.
      - Amezarak 11y ago
        I'm not speculating. I'm telling you what I see daily in front of the school.
        tptacek 11y ago
        I remain skeptical. I did some research, and the reports I found suggest that e-cig usage among teenagers is rare relative to cigarettes, and that most teenage e-cig users are former cigarette smokers. And again, as a parent of two children in roughly this age group, what you're saying you see every day conflicts with my own experience. I think you're wrong about the general argument you're trying to make about e-cigarettes.

collyw 11y ago

Smoking an vaping are different. Why should no smoking rules apply to vaping?

throwanem 11y ago
Because I don't want to breathe your diacetyl and propylene glycol mist any more than you want to breathe my cigarette smoke.
- throwaway160303 11y ago
  I'm with you, and I also don't want to breathe the halitosis-infused mist expelled by my coworkers. Seems reasonable to me to have some legislation on the books to require people who work in a shared workplace to brush their teeth.
- jrockway 11y ago
  So are you also banning asthmatics from using their inhaler in public? You're getting secondhand propylene glycol from them too! I don't smoke or vape, but I really don't see why vaping is so unpopular. Is it just "drugs are bad" again? I again don't get it, as nobody complains about seeing people drinking coffee in public. As far as I can tell, caffeine and nicotine are similar drugs with different delivery mechanisms. Except nobody is worried about high school students getting hooked on caffeine from flavored coffee beverages.
  - throwanem 11y ago
    When asthmatics start leaving thick, persistent clouds of inhaler mist behind them as they walk, you'll have a point there.
    - jrockway 11y ago
      I guess if you want to pollute, you have to make the pollution invisible, like cars do.
- 11y ago