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> But it's also true that what hurts e-cigarette companies helps tobacco companies. Not really. The major tobacco manufacturers dominate e-cig marketshare in

> But it's also true that what hurts e-cigarette companies helps tobacco companies. Not really. The major tobacco manufacturers dominate e-cig marketshare in the US. The way it benefits them is that smaller players can afford the regulation less, ensuring the tobacco manufacturers can get a total lock on the market.

aab0 11y ago
Bootleggers and Baptists... I wonder how all the hysterical anti-tobacco organizations, who see anything with nicotine in it as the second coming of tobacco smoking, feel about that? It should feel awkward.
- Amezarak 11y ago
  Well, I favor it. Just because it favors Big Tobacco doesn't mean it doesn't simultaneously do some good. Big Tobacco's self interest is, in this case, what I consider to be the general interest. It was actually incredible to me that e-cigs got away with so little regulation for so long in the first place. The only thing I'm worried about is it's too little, too late: there are a lot of people now who are hooked on nicotine who weren't before, and the constant barrage of marketing claiming they are perfectly safe is only making matters worse. And yes, I recognize that it possibly has some use in helping smokers quit or move to a nicotine delivery system that is most probably less harmful. If that's the justification for e-cigs, then limit sales to smokers.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    There are a lot more people hooked on nicotine than before? Is there evidence you can cite for that? That's a surprising statement. E-cigarettes are 100x dorkier than cigarettes and much more annoying to use. Virtually none of my smoker friends stick with them for very long.
    - Amezarak 11y ago
      > There are a lot more people hooked on nicotine than before? Is there evidence you can cite for that? I said "who weren't before", i.e., there are new nicotine addicts who became addicted through e-cig usage (and probably would not have become addicted otherwise.) I did not say, and I doubt, that there are more nicotine addicts than before given the general downward trend in smoking. I generally see two types of people vaping or using e-cigs: middle schoolers and smokers who want an additional fix, often in places they aren't allowed to smoke - for some reason a huge number of vapers, etc. think that no-smoking rules don't apply to them. I've seen people get violent over being asked to stop vaping in a no-smoking area twice.
      - tptacek 11y ago
        Can you present data to back this up? I would be surprised to learn that it was true. Middle schoolers, for instance, can get cigarettes even more easily than they can e-cigs†, and while vaping indoors was pretty common a couple years ago, it's been more than a year since I saw anyone do it in Chicago. I guess I'm saying: I'm really skeptical of your claim that e-cigarettes are introducing more people to smoking. Cigarettes already do a pretty amazing job of introducing people to smoking. † As the parent of someone who was a middle schooler just last year, let me add that I would be flabbergasted to see one of them vaping, but not entirely surprised to see them with a cigarette. If I saw a teenager vaping, "tobacco" would not be my first guess as to the intoxicant involved.
        Amezarak 11y ago
        > Can you present data to back this up? I framed it the way I did because all I have is anecdotes. When I say "a lot of people are addicted to nicotine that weren't before" this is substantiated by my personal knowledge of around three dozen individuals. > I'm really skeptical of your claim that e-cigarettes are introducing more people to smoking. There are more than three hundred million people in the US. E-cigs are a multibillion dollar industry. It would be astonishing if there was no one introduced to nicotine by e-cigs. > vaping indoors was pretty common a couple years ago, it's been more than a year since I saw anyone do it in Chicago. > As the parent of someone who was a middle schooler just last year, let me add that I would be flabbergasted to see one of them vaping, Some of this is probably cultural. I've never been to Chicago, but Chicago friends tell me that people are generally much health-focused in Chicago. I live in a southern rural area, and from what a teacher friend tells me and from my own observation, about a third of local middle schoolers vape. I can definitely believe this is an outlier, but even that's too much, in my opinion, considering it didn't have to be that way. There are much fewer smokers, and that's been about constant.
  - Zigurd 11y ago
    Assuming more people use nicotine than before, and you have no proof of that, regulating e-cigs without showing negative health effects is a bad idea. It's also a bluenose idea: Kids are using a mind altering drug! OMG! Other than the approved ones like caffeine in Mountain Dew and Coke, which, with the sugar, are certainly more harmful than nicotine.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- snowwrestler 11y ago
  They're pleased with the regulation. Example: http://www.tobaccofreekids.org/press_releases/post/2016_05_05_ecig http://www.tobaccofreekids.org/press_releases/post/2016_05_0...
mistermann 11y ago
> The major tobacco manufacturers dominate e-cig marketshare in the US. I'm curious what leads you to believe this? Perhaps they lead in the "gas station disposables" market, but almost no one uses those. Anyone serious about using an ecig uses the larger 650 (minimum) mah batteries with detachable ~atomizers (because nothing smaller than that performs adequately) and those are manufactured almost exclusively by independent Chinese companies and sold via independent websites and retail stores.
- Amezarak 11y ago
  > I'm curious what leads you to believe this? All the available sales data, such as this: http://www.journalnow.com/blu-ecigs-brand-has-lost-market-share/article_ecf67d3e-f1fb-5218-b3da-4e8444d94446.html http://www.journalnow.com/blu-ecigs-brand-has-lost-market-sh... According to Nielsen data as of May 16, Vuse has a 35.7 percent U.S. market share as measured by all distribution channels for e-cigs. Vuse is available at more than 100,000 retail outlets nationwide. Blu eCigs was second in market share at 22.7 percent, while Logic was third at 13.8 percent. Logic was bought recently by Japan Tobacco. There is a lot of data missing from independent vape shops, yes. But the numbers we have indicate Big Tobacco is moving near a billion dollars worth of e-cigs a year. > Anyone serious about using an ecig uses the larger 650 (minimum) mah batteries with detachable ~atomizers (because nothing smaller than that performs adequately) and those are manufactured almost exclusively by independent Chinese companies and sold via independent websites and retail stores. People serious about coffee buy their own beans sourced from great growers, get a grinder, etc etc. Nevertheless, the vast majority of the millions of people who buy coffee get it from places like McDonald's and Starbucks and instant coffee containers. And at any rate, parts and liquids sourced from independent Chinese companies and sold via independent websites sounds exactly like the kind of thing that should be regulated and inspected.
  - mistermann 11y ago
    > Nielsen data focuses primarily on convenience-store sales. Data includes vaporizers, or open vapor products, but those are more frequently bought at vape shops and tobacco outlet stores. > Nevertheless, the vast majority of the millions of people who buy coffee get it from places like McDonald's and Starbucks and instant coffee containers. I suppose one might think this is a valid comparison, but it simply is not. Try this: for the next few weeks when you're out and about, pay attention to the types of ecigs people are using in public, I guarantee you it isn't the tiny Blu or Vuse disposables; I see at least 25 people a day using ecigs in the wild, and I have literally never seen anyone using one of these disposables that is being reported on in that statistic. Or if you are genuinely curious in discovering the correct answer to this question: https://www.reddit.com/r/electronic_cigarette https://www.reddit.com/r/electronic_cigarette https://www.reddit.com/r/electronic_cigarette/search?q=vuse&restrict_sr=on&sort=relevance&t=all https://www.reddit.com/r/electronic_cigarette/search?q=vuse&... https://www.reddit.com/r/electronic_cigarette/search?q=blu&restrict_sr=on&sort=relevance&t=all https://www.reddit.com/r/electronic_cigarette/search?q=blu&r...

aab0 11y ago

Bootleggers and Baptists... I wonder how all the hysterical anti-tobacco organizations, who see anything with nicotine in it as the second coming of tobacco smoking, feel about that? It should feel awkward.

Amezarak 11y ago
Well, I favor it. Just because it favors Big Tobacco doesn't mean it doesn't simultaneously do some good. Big Tobacco's self interest is, in this case, what I consider to be the general interest. It was actually incredible to me that e-cigs got away with so little regulation for so long in the first place. The only thing I'm worried about is it's too little, too late: there are a lot of people now who are hooked on nicotine who weren't before, and the constant barrage of marketing claiming they are perfectly safe is only making matters worse. And yes, I recognize that it possibly has some use in helping smokers quit or move to a nicotine delivery system that is most probably less harmful. If that's the justification for e-cigs, then limit sales to smokers.
- tptacek 11y ago
  There are a lot more people hooked on nicotine than before? Is there evidence you can cite for that? That's a surprising statement. E-cigarettes are 100x dorkier than cigarettes and much more annoying to use. Virtually none of my smoker friends stick with them for very long.
  - Amezarak 11y ago
    > There are a lot more people hooked on nicotine than before? Is there evidence you can cite for that? I said "who weren't before", i.e., there are new nicotine addicts who became addicted through e-cig usage (and probably would not have become addicted otherwise.) I did not say, and I doubt, that there are more nicotine addicts than before given the general downward trend in smoking. I generally see two types of people vaping or using e-cigs: middle schoolers and smokers who want an additional fix, often in places they aren't allowed to smoke - for some reason a huge number of vapers, etc. think that no-smoking rules don't apply to them. I've seen people get violent over being asked to stop vaping in a no-smoking area twice.
    - tptacek 11y ago
      Can you present data to back this up? I would be surprised to learn that it was true. Middle schoolers, for instance, can get cigarettes even more easily than they can e-cigs†, and while vaping indoors was pretty common a couple years ago, it's been more than a year since I saw anyone do it in Chicago. I guess I'm saying: I'm really skeptical of your claim that e-cigarettes are introducing more people to smoking. Cigarettes already do a pretty amazing job of introducing people to smoking. † As the parent of someone who was a middle schooler just last year, let me add that I would be flabbergasted to see one of them vaping, but not entirely surprised to see them with a cigarette. If I saw a teenager vaping, "tobacco" would not be my first guess as to the intoxicant involved.
      - Amezarak 11y ago
        > Can you present data to back this up? I framed it the way I did because all I have is anecdotes. When I say "a lot of people are addicted to nicotine that weren't before" this is substantiated by my personal knowledge of around three dozen individuals. > I'm really skeptical of your claim that e-cigarettes are introducing more people to smoking. There are more than three hundred million people in the US. E-cigs are a multibillion dollar industry. It would be astonishing if there was no one introduced to nicotine by e-cigs. > vaping indoors was pretty common a couple years ago, it's been more than a year since I saw anyone do it in Chicago. > As the parent of someone who was a middle schooler just last year, let me add that I would be flabbergasted to see one of them vaping, Some of this is probably cultural. I've never been to Chicago, but Chicago friends tell me that people are generally much health-focused in Chicago. I live in a southern rural area, and from what a teacher friend tells me and from my own observation, about a third of local middle schoolers vape. I can definitely believe this is an outlier, but even that's too much, in my opinion, considering it didn't have to be that way. There are much fewer smokers, and that's been about constant.
- Zigurd 11y ago
  Assuming more people use nicotine than before, and you have no proof of that, regulating e-cigs without showing negative health effects is a bad idea. It's also a bluenose idea: Kids are using a mind altering drug! OMG! Other than the approved ones like caffeine in Mountain Dew and Coke, which, with the sugar, are certainly more harmful than nicotine.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
snowwrestler 11y ago
They're pleased with the regulation. Example: http://www.tobaccofreekids.org/press_releases/post/2016_05_05_ecig http://www.tobaccofreekids.org/press_releases/post/2016_05_0...

mistermann 11y ago

> The major tobacco manufacturers dominate e-cig marketshare in the US. I'm curious what leads you to believe this? Perhaps they lead in the "gas station disposables" market, but almost no one uses those. Anyone serious about using an ecig uses the larger 650 (minimum) mah batteries with detachable ~atomizers (because nothing smaller than that performs adequately) and those are manufactured almost exclusively by independent Chinese companies and sold via independent websites and retail stores.

Amezarak 11y ago
> I'm curious what leads you to believe this? All the available sales data, such as this: http://www.journalnow.com/blu-ecigs-brand-has-lost-market-share/article_ecf67d3e-f1fb-5218-b3da-4e8444d94446.html http://www.journalnow.com/blu-ecigs-brand-has-lost-market-sh... According to Nielsen data as of May 16, Vuse has a 35.7 percent U.S. market share as measured by all distribution channels for e-cigs. Vuse is available at more than 100,000 retail outlets nationwide. Blu eCigs was second in market share at 22.7 percent, while Logic was third at 13.8 percent. Logic was bought recently by Japan Tobacco. There is a lot of data missing from independent vape shops, yes. But the numbers we have indicate Big Tobacco is moving near a billion dollars worth of e-cigs a year. > Anyone serious about using an ecig uses the larger 650 (minimum) mah batteries with detachable ~atomizers (because nothing smaller than that performs adequately) and those are manufactured almost exclusively by independent Chinese companies and sold via independent websites and retail stores. People serious about coffee buy their own beans sourced from great growers, get a grinder, etc etc. Nevertheless, the vast majority of the millions of people who buy coffee get it from places like McDonald's and Starbucks and instant coffee containers. And at any rate, parts and liquids sourced from independent Chinese companies and sold via independent websites sounds exactly like the kind of thing that should be regulated and inspected.
- mistermann 11y ago
  > Nielsen data focuses primarily on convenience-store sales. Data includes vaporizers, or open vapor products, but those are more frequently bought at vape shops and tobacco outlet stores. > Nevertheless, the vast majority of the millions of people who buy coffee get it from places like McDonald's and Starbucks and instant coffee containers. I suppose one might think this is a valid comparison, but it simply is not. Try this: for the next few weeks when you're out and about, pay attention to the types of ecigs people are using in public, I guarantee you it isn't the tiny Blu or Vuse disposables; I see at least 25 people a day using ecigs in the wild, and I have literally never seen anyone using one of these disposables that is being reported on in that statistic. Or if you are genuinely curious in discovering the correct answer to this question: https://www.reddit.com/r/electronic_cigarette https://www.reddit.com/r/electronic_cigarette https://www.reddit.com/r/electronic_cigarette/search?q=vuse&restrict_sr=on&sort=relevance&t=all https://www.reddit.com/r/electronic_cigarette/search?q=vuse&... https://www.reddit.com/r/electronic_cigarette/search?q=blu&restrict_sr=on&sort=relevance&t=all https://www.reddit.com/r/electronic_cigarette/search?q=blu&r...