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"It is not productive, does not produce smarter or more learned people." I would like to disagree, but I don't have anything to back up my claim that mass scho

"It is not productive, does not produce smarter or more learned people." I would like to disagree, but I don't have anything to back up my claim that mass schooling makes people smarter or more learned. Like you, I just have anecdotes. But one thing is for sure. I would never have gotten to where I am today. If I hadn't learned english at school. Having lived in two countries, neither of which had english as a native language, I would unlikely have learned english unless it had been taught at school

hmottestad 11y ago
Also, from one time when I was a temp at a primary school for 2 weeks. I saw a kid who had come to Norway at the age of 10 or so, and now one year later he could still not add double digit numbers. Worse yet, he didn't see how a problem could be solved by adding two numbers. So problems along the lines of "I have two apples, you give me three, how many do I have now?" where beyond his ability to solve without assistance. He did however manage to learn quite good Norwegian in that year.
guard-of-terra 11y ago
"I would unlikely have learned english unless it had been taught at school" You could as well play a lot of video games in English and dabbling in programming. That's how I learned. Everybody who relied on school for learning English - still barely understand it.
- saint_fiasco 11y ago
  I don't know why this is being downvoted. Teaching a language to students with mixed levels of previous knowledge and motivation is extremely hard. The schools I went to could never manage it. I learned English from Japanese videogames that had been translated to English by Ted Woolsey.
  - oarsinsync 11y ago
    > I learned English from Japanese videogames <intentional snip> Did you set us up the bomb?
    - saint_fiasco 10y ago
      What you say !! I remember having an interesting discussion with my Spanglish-speaking friends about whether "All your base" was supposed to mean "your entire base" or "each and every one of your bases". My Engrish-speaking friend could immediately tell that the second interpretation was the correct one.
- lukewrites 11y ago
  Out of curiosity, does this mean that you didn't have any English lessons in school? I ask because in the field of Second Language Acquisition there's a pretty strong consensus that the optimal path to language learning involves a combination of classroom instruction augmented by interaction with (reading, listening) & use of (speaking, writing) the language. I've spent most of my career as a language teacher, and the typical successful learner is one who isn't necessarily a language nerd, but almost always is someone who does some heavy lifting in the target language outside of class. I love students that have a goal for language use because they help me to target my instruction to bits of language that will be immediately useful to them. (One of the best jobs I had was teaching English to software developenow here I am.rs; as I researched the language they needed, I started to learn programming and )
  - guard-of-terra 11y ago
    I did have some, they began slightly later than I've got hold of a PC. I do think that some school lessons contributed their share. I just don't think that sitting behind a desk for two hours per week, for ten years, is necessary or desired. After a few years I did not need much "training wheels" and could continue to increase proficiency regardless.
    - lukewrites 10y ago
      > After a few years I did not need much "training wheels" and could continue to increase proficiency regardless. Every teacher's dream outcome. Congratulations! :)
nibs 11y ago
That is an interesting point. I only learned to read when I was 11 (never had any need to, before that) which is strangely late. When I went to school at 12, I found I was the fastest reader, and tested as "University +" reading level, which is the highest there was. By learning independently of school, I learned way later in life, and learned in a way that was right for my stage of development. My anecdote about it not being productive is purely subjective, but the science on development theory is clear. If left to their own devices, almost all people learn native language, writing and math on their own timeline in about 100 hours. School makes this process far less effcient, and teaches things like grammer that program the brain to read slowly and without depth. Obviously my anecdote is hyperbolic, I speak primarily as someone who had a great unschooling experience and then went to school and saw the difference, and a little bit as someone who has read extensive child development theory.
- Jtsummers 11y ago
  Not learning to read until I was 11 would have been strange. I had no specific need to read, but being literate at 4 allowed me to program at 7. It allowed me to explore mathematics beyond what most of my peers did because I read every bit of the book. And then there were the scores of books I read and the interaction with friends using encoding schemes lifted from my Boys' Life subscription. This is very much a to each their own thing. It worked well for you but it also sounds like you had a uniquely active family and community to support this. The primary problem with homeschooling and unschooling is the lack of family support. Either by apathy or by lack of economic opportunity. Or simply their own lack of education preventing them from even being aware of these options (such as finding a community to coordinate with to make up for their on educational deficiencies). I can't speak for all public schools, my parents deliberately chose better than average schools for my sister and I to attend. But good public schools exist. Good teachers exist. But just like good home schooling and unschooling experiences, this requires either luck of birth (well-to-do parents) or deliberate effort by parents to improve their children's position.
  - nibs 11y ago
    I agree. I went to private school for a year and did well. I went to public school after that because private was too expensive to maintain, and it was not so good. A few non-burned out teachers who made a difference, mostly just soul-crushing apathy and stockhold syndrome all around. And I would love to have learned to program and read earlier, I am not sure how I managed to go that long without reading, I guess I was just different developmentally.
fiatjaf 11y ago
Your anecdote doesn't even count, because you're assuming, without any reason to, that you're right about the counterfactual.

hmottestad 11y ago

Also, from one time when I was a temp at a primary school for 2 weeks. I saw a kid who had come to Norway at the age of 10 or so, and now one year later he could still not add double digit numbers. Worse yet, he didn't see how a problem could be solved by adding two numbers. So problems along the lines of "I have two apples, you give me three, how many do I have now?" where beyond his ability to solve without assistance. He did however manage to learn quite good Norwegian in that year.

guard-of-terra 11y ago

"I would unlikely have learned english unless it had been taught at school" You could as well play a lot of video games in English and dabbling in programming. That's how I learned. Everybody who relied on school for learning English - still barely understand it.

saint_fiasco 11y ago
I don't know why this is being downvoted. Teaching a language to students with mixed levels of previous knowledge and motivation is extremely hard. The schools I went to could never manage it. I learned English from Japanese videogames that had been translated to English by Ted Woolsey.
- oarsinsync 11y ago
  > I learned English from Japanese videogames <intentional snip> Did you set us up the bomb?
  - saint_fiasco 10y ago
    What you say !! I remember having an interesting discussion with my Spanglish-speaking friends about whether "All your base" was supposed to mean "your entire base" or "each and every one of your bases". My Engrish-speaking friend could immediately tell that the second interpretation was the correct one.
lukewrites 11y ago
Out of curiosity, does this mean that you didn't have any English lessons in school? I ask because in the field of Second Language Acquisition there's a pretty strong consensus that the optimal path to language learning involves a combination of classroom instruction augmented by interaction with (reading, listening) & use of (speaking, writing) the language. I've spent most of my career as a language teacher, and the typical successful learner is one who isn't necessarily a language nerd, but almost always is someone who does some heavy lifting in the target language outside of class. I love students that have a goal for language use because they help me to target my instruction to bits of language that will be immediately useful to them. (One of the best jobs I had was teaching English to software developenow here I am.rs; as I researched the language they needed, I started to learn programming and )
- guard-of-terra 11y ago
  I did have some, they began slightly later than I've got hold of a PC. I do think that some school lessons contributed their share. I just don't think that sitting behind a desk for two hours per week, for ten years, is necessary or desired. After a few years I did not need much "training wheels" and could continue to increase proficiency regardless.
  - lukewrites 10y ago
    > After a few years I did not need much "training wheels" and could continue to increase proficiency regardless. Every teacher's dream outcome. Congratulations! :)

nibs 11y ago

That is an interesting point. I only learned to read when I was 11 (never had any need to, before that) which is strangely late. When I went to school at 12, I found I was the fastest reader, and tested as "University +" reading level, which is the highest there was. By learning independently of school, I learned way later in life, and learned in a way that was right for my stage of development. My anecdote about it not being productive is purely subjective, but the science on development theory is clear. If left to their own devices, almost all people learn native language, writing and math on their own timeline in about 100 hours. School makes this process far less effcient, and teaches things like grammer that program the brain to read slowly and without depth. Obviously my anecdote is hyperbolic, I speak primarily as someone who had a great unschooling experience and then went to school and saw the difference, and a little bit as someone who has read extensive child development theory.

Jtsummers 11y ago
Not learning to read until I was 11 would have been strange. I had no specific need to read, but being literate at 4 allowed me to program at 7. It allowed me to explore mathematics beyond what most of my peers did because I read every bit of the book. And then there were the scores of books I read and the interaction with friends using encoding schemes lifted from my Boys' Life subscription. This is very much a to each their own thing. It worked well for you but it also sounds like you had a uniquely active family and community to support this. The primary problem with homeschooling and unschooling is the lack of family support. Either by apathy or by lack of economic opportunity. Or simply their own lack of education preventing them from even being aware of these options (such as finding a community to coordinate with to make up for their on educational deficiencies). I can't speak for all public schools, my parents deliberately chose better than average schools for my sister and I to attend. But good public schools exist. Good teachers exist. But just like good home schooling and unschooling experiences, this requires either luck of birth (well-to-do parents) or deliberate effort by parents to improve their children's position.
- nibs 11y ago
  I agree. I went to private school for a year and did well. I went to public school after that because private was too expensive to maintain, and it was not so good. A few non-burned out teachers who made a difference, mostly just soul-crushing apathy and stockhold syndrome all around. And I would love to have learned to program and read earlier, I am not sure how I managed to go that long without reading, I guess I was just different developmentally.

fiatjaf 11y ago

Your anecdote doesn't even count, because you're assuming, without any reason to, that you're right about the counterfactual.