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This "vote brigading" thing is ridiculous. Are we to believe that no one else involved tweeted or otherwise publicized their candidacy?

by kenko 10y ago

argonaut 10y ago
If they did so publicly, you can tell dang about it...
- borski 10y ago
  That's not really relevant; I don't think it's our job, or anyone else's, to police the internet for 'vote brigading.' In this case, it was never against the stated rules.
  - dang 10y ago
    It's definitely against HN's rules and is in the FAQ: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html
    - borski 10y ago
      Yup! And I don't intend to ever do that. But that says nothing about the Apply HN situation. That's new, had a different set of rules (hell, you wrote a polling solution), and the regular guidelines didn't necessarily apply. That they did should have been made clear. Again, nothing against it this time, since it's all up to you guys - just feedback for the next time.
    - idlewords 10y ago
      That specifically refers to submitted stories. I think it is dodgy to have an online election, and then disqualify participants for mentioning it to people who might want to vote for them.
      - dang 10y ago
        I don't see a distinction there. It refers to submissions, and Apply HN posts were submissions, a.k.a. stories in HN's sense (posts that aren't comments). Certainly it never crossed my mind that the rules about voting rings would be any different than with regular posts. HN users are passionately opposed to the voting system getting gamed; we'd have been skinned alive if we allowed it. But tptacek makes a good point about that not being obvious to everybody.
        tptacek 10y ago
        The post he provided a link to wasn't his Apply HN submission; it was the run-off poll. I told him when I noticed the same Twitter post that it was going to cause problems (too late!), and he was genuinely surprised.
        kenko 10y ago
        He did also provide an earlier link to all the Apply HN submissions (not his alone).
        borski 10y ago
        Right - I agree with you, in general. I just think that this particular situation is a bit different, and Apply HN implies that there are folks outside HN applying /to/ HN. Those folks outside HN may have no idea about the voting rules, and it also isn't clear, even to long-time HN users, that this wasn't a different situation entirely.
        idlewords 10y ago
        Do you think I would have consciously sabotaged my chances by breaking this rule had I been aware of it? Especially knowing that YC would be looking for any pretext to disqualify me? Your rules about voting rings are not public. I think that you're so used to modding the site that you forget this, but take a look at the letter of what it actually says in the FAQ.
        10y ago
    - duck 10y ago
      Why is the FAQ not linked within the Guidelines page (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)? To me, that is a guideline... you wouldn't look at the FAQ before posting something.
jsnell 10y ago
Let's be clear; this wasn't just somebody tweeting about their Apply HN. It was explicit and repeated requests to vote specifically for him, going to a couple of orders of magnitude more followers than a normal person would have. What would be ridiculous is for the results to be determined by who has the biggest social networking presence.
- toyg 10y ago
  Dude, any election is a social thing. To pretend otherwise is to kid yourself. If you don't want a popularity contest across social networks, don't have public voting - simple as.
- thedufer 10y ago
  > It was explicit and repeated requests to vote specifically for him Where, exactly? His Twitter feed contains a single link to each of his original Apply HN and the later poll (plus one link-less joke about the poll). I mean, yes, he has a big following, and yes, he promoted his application (which everyone involved admits he would not have done if he had thought it was against the rules). But "explicit and repeated" makes it sound like a lot more than one (humorous) tweet per poll. And it's not like he used a personal account, either. That one doesn't mention it at all. It's just @Pinboard - and frankly, it would be weird if you didn't think current customers would want to support you in growing your business.
  - jsnell 10y ago
    Three tweets that contained a link that solicited votes, which is almost certainly three more than the median applicant. It'd be more if you also counted links without the requests to vote. https://twitter.com/Pinboard/status/727255170594131968 https://twitter.com/Pinboard/status/727255170594131968 https://twitter.com/Pinboard/status/720802750317993984 https://twitter.com/Pinboard/status/720802750317993984 https://twitter.com/Pinboard/status/719599297604390912 https://twitter.com/Pinboard/status/719599297604390912 And sorry, claiming they were just jokes can't be a free pass. Everything about that application was framed as a joke from start to finish.

This "vote brigading" thing is ridiculous. Are we to believe that no one else involved tweeted or otherwise publicized their candidacy?

by kenko 10y ago

This "vote brigading" thing is ridiculous. Are we to believe that no one else involved tweeted or otherwise publicized their candidacy?

argonaut 10y ago

If they did so publicly, you can tell dang about it...

borski 10y ago
That's not really relevant; I don't think it's our job, or anyone else's, to police the internet for 'vote brigading.' In this case, it was never against the stated rules.
- dang 10y ago
  It's definitely against HN's rules and is in the FAQ: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html
  - borski 10y ago
    Yup! And I don't intend to ever do that. But that says nothing about the Apply HN situation. That's new, had a different set of rules (hell, you wrote a polling solution), and the regular guidelines didn't necessarily apply. That they did should have been made clear. Again, nothing against it this time, since it's all up to you guys - just feedback for the next time.
  - idlewords 10y ago
    That specifically refers to submitted stories. I think it is dodgy to have an online election, and then disqualify participants for mentioning it to people who might want to vote for them.
    - dang 10y ago
      I don't see a distinction there. It refers to submissions, and Apply HN posts were submissions, a.k.a. stories in HN's sense (posts that aren't comments). Certainly it never crossed my mind that the rules about voting rings would be any different than with regular posts. HN users are passionately opposed to the voting system getting gamed; we'd have been skinned alive if we allowed it. But tptacek makes a good point about that not being obvious to everybody.
      - tptacek 10y ago
        The post he provided a link to wasn't his Apply HN submission; it was the run-off poll. I told him when I noticed the same Twitter post that it was going to cause problems (too late!), and he was genuinely surprised.
        kenko 10y ago
        He did also provide an earlier link to all the Apply HN submissions (not his alone).
      - borski 10y ago
        Right - I agree with you, in general. I just think that this particular situation is a bit different, and Apply HN implies that there are folks outside HN applying /to/ HN. Those folks outside HN may have no idea about the voting rules, and it also isn't clear, even to long-time HN users, that this wasn't a different situation entirely.
      - idlewords 10y ago
        Do you think I would have consciously sabotaged my chances by breaking this rule had I been aware of it? Especially knowing that YC would be looking for any pretext to disqualify me? Your rules about voting rings are not public. I think that you're so used to modding the site that you forget this, but take a look at the letter of what it actually says in the FAQ.
        10y ago
  - duck 10y ago
    Why is the FAQ not linked within the Guidelines page (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)? To me, that is a guideline... you wouldn't look at the FAQ before posting something.

jsnell 10y ago

Let's be clear; this wasn't just somebody tweeting about their Apply HN. It was explicit and repeated requests to vote specifically for him, going to a couple of orders of magnitude more followers than a normal person would have. What would be ridiculous is for the results to be determined by who has the biggest social networking presence.

toyg 10y ago
Dude, any election is a social thing. To pretend otherwise is to kid yourself. If you don't want a popularity contest across social networks, don't have public voting - simple as.
thedufer 10y ago
> It was explicit and repeated requests to vote specifically for him Where, exactly? His Twitter feed contains a single link to each of his original Apply HN and the later poll (plus one link-less joke about the poll). I mean, yes, he has a big following, and yes, he promoted his application (which everyone involved admits he would not have done if he had thought it was against the rules). But "explicit and repeated" makes it sound like a lot more than one (humorous) tweet per poll. And it's not like he used a personal account, either. That one doesn't mention it at all. It's just @Pinboard - and frankly, it would be weird if you didn't think current customers would want to support you in growing your business.
- jsnell 10y ago
  Three tweets that contained a link that solicited votes, which is almost certainly three more than the median applicant. It'd be more if you also counted links without the requests to vote. https://twitter.com/Pinboard/status/727255170594131968 https://twitter.com/Pinboard/status/727255170594131968 https://twitter.com/Pinboard/status/720802750317993984 https://twitter.com/Pinboard/status/720802750317993984 https://twitter.com/Pinboard/status/719599297604390912 https://twitter.com/Pinboard/status/719599297604390912 And sorry, claiming they were just jokes can't be a free pass. Everything about that application was framed as a joke from start to finish.