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I had a change of heart about this recently - from realizing that overcoming challenges, is what's had the most positive impact on me, and those around me. Rea

I had a change of heart about this recently - from realizing that overcoming challenges, is what's had the most positive impact on me, and those around me. Really, the people advocating basic-income are those who think 'if only I had the money so that I had the time, to do what I really want to do!', but if they dug a little deeper, they'd realize that's just an excuse. Anyone who wants to work their ass off, and sacrifice the near future for the long term payoff - USA/Canada are incredible incredible places to do it. You can live in a basement, work night shift security where you get to do whatever you want, for the majority of your shift. There are 100 other examples of making it work where you sacrifice in the short term for your long term goal but truth is - people who are wishing for basic income, are wishing they didn't have to struggle so much. When you get over the hump and see how much more understanding you have of the world around you and of yourself as a result of the struggle, you'll feel differently. Again, there's nothing wrong with wishing it were easier, but don't believe the fairytale of some outside factor making it or breaking it in you achieving success - it is all you. And it'll always be all you. Nobody else. Not the government, not your boss. You.

dragonwriter 11y ago
> Really, the people advocating basic-income are those who think 'if only I had the money so that I had the time, to do what I really want to do!' No, you're just wrong. There are lots of different reasons people support UBI, and "if only I had the money so that I had the time, to do what I really want to do" isn't particularly high on the list. E.g., many proponents like UBI because they see it as more efficient than means- and behavior-tested benefit programs that consume lots of resources and make life miserable for potential beneficiaries with high-touch bureaucracies designed to apply the means- and behavior-testing.
- DougN7 11y ago
  I've been sort of in favor of UBI, but these discussions have made me realize it can never work. Let's say we give everyone $50K. Why not $50 billion? I'm being serious - the same effect ends up happening -- prices increase proportionately. I'm basing that on the idea that 90+% of work that happens today really does need to happen. That means that 90%+ of those working today will need to be enticed to keep working by giving them more money. Now almost everyone has more money, but the same limited supply of goods and services are available. Prices will rise -- simple supply and demand. Those on UBI will fall behind if they don't work.
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    > I've been sort of in favor of UBI, but these discussions have made me realize it can never work. I don't think you understand UBI, how it is intended to work, or the economics around it. > Let's say we give everyone $50K. $50K is ludicrously high for an early UBI implementation. The ambitious advocates target a per-person level that would hit at or near the federal poverty line (the more cautious advocates see getting up even to that level as a longer-term goal.) > Why not $50 billion? I'm being serious - the same effect ends up happening -- prices increase proportionately No, they don't. First, because all actual UBI proposals are redistributive (whether the money comes from existing social benefit programs including the government employees/contractors managing them being cut, or whether it comes from new taxes, or from some combination. So it doesn't change the supply of money, just where it is.) Its true that goods disproportionately demanded by the portion of the population receiving a net benefit from the implementation of the UBI can be expected to increase, but under any reasonable expectations these increases will generally be less, proportionally, than the increase in income. So, there will be a net increase in utility for the net income gainers, though somewhat less than would be expected if you considered pre-UBI price levels. But also because one purpose of UBI is to reduced the disincentive to work created by means-tested social benefit programs, where some portion of the income provided by work is lost in benefits. (In some proposals, UBI would also reduce the barrier to mutually-beneficial employment at low wages provided by minimum wage laws.)
    - DougN7 11y ago
      > $50K is ludicrously high for an early UBI implementation. Sure, I was just picking a number. Let's say it's $5K per person? $25K? (Not sure how it works with families with kids). > actual UBI proposals are redistributive Honest question: is there actually that much in the system without requiring massively raising taxes? A quick look at http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2014/12/federal-spending-by-the-numbers-2014 http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2014/12/federal-spe... seems to show the Federal Budget is maybe 75% social programs in a broad sense, so I assume that's the money that would ultimately get retargeted. Is that enough to give everyone in the US a living income? And I don't mean in the early implementation but 20 years in when it's humming along as envisioned. > these increases will generally be less, proportionally, than the increase in income. How can that be when everyone would be making more money because UBI is added to their income as well. All labor costs would rise for everything. Everyone can't suddenly have more money and all want to go on a cruise without cruise prices increasing to the point that the same number of people that can afford it now will afford it then. I just don't see anyway this works at scale. It only works temporarily but once things hit equilibrium, we're back when we started.
- alexashka 11y ago
  I'm sure there are many reasons people claim. At the end of the day, people want happy feelings and fewer sad feelings. That's it. Whatever else they claim is born out of the basics. Basic-income is 'the society needs to change for me to have happy feelings and fewer sad feelings'. That's the bottom line. And my point is don't waste your life hoping for society to do something for you. Make your life work in whatever environment you're in. If you're a political entity and can actually push towards implementing basic income - I'd love to hear from you. Otherwise, go live your life :)
dingaling 11y ago
> but don't believe the fairytale of some outside factor making it or breaking it in you achieving success UBI isn't about 'success'. It's about providing an environment in which people can choose to do productive, fruitful things. Or silly, pointless things. Whichever they choose doesn't matter, there's no metric other than it's interesting and fulfilling to them. No boss doing an end-of-year report saying 'well Bill, you contributed to 100 open-source programming projects but none of them contributed to increasing our bottom-line, so unfortunately...' Those who are really fired-up chasing 'success' can go ahead and enrich themselves financially just like they do today. Many, many people don't measure success like that but are forced into behaving as if they do just to achieve the basics of the needs-triangle.

dragonwriter 11y ago

> Really, the people advocating basic-income are those who think 'if only I had the money so that I had the time, to do what I really want to do!' No, you're just wrong. There are lots of different reasons people support UBI, and "if only I had the money so that I had the time, to do what I really want to do" isn't particularly high on the list. E.g., many proponents like UBI because they see it as more efficient than means- and behavior-tested benefit programs that consume lots of resources and make life miserable for potential beneficiaries with high-touch bureaucracies designed to apply the means- and behavior-testing.

DougN7 11y ago
I've been sort of in favor of UBI, but these discussions have made me realize it can never work. Let's say we give everyone $50K. Why not $50 billion? I'm being serious - the same effect ends up happening -- prices increase proportionately. I'm basing that on the idea that 90+% of work that happens today really does need to happen. That means that 90%+ of those working today will need to be enticed to keep working by giving them more money. Now almost everyone has more money, but the same limited supply of goods and services are available. Prices will rise -- simple supply and demand. Those on UBI will fall behind if they don't work.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > I've been sort of in favor of UBI, but these discussions have made me realize it can never work. I don't think you understand UBI, how it is intended to work, or the economics around it. > Let's say we give everyone $50K. $50K is ludicrously high for an early UBI implementation. The ambitious advocates target a per-person level that would hit at or near the federal poverty line (the more cautious advocates see getting up even to that level as a longer-term goal.) > Why not $50 billion? I'm being serious - the same effect ends up happening -- prices increase proportionately No, they don't. First, because all actual UBI proposals are redistributive (whether the money comes from existing social benefit programs including the government employees/contractors managing them being cut, or whether it comes from new taxes, or from some combination. So it doesn't change the supply of money, just where it is.) Its true that goods disproportionately demanded by the portion of the population receiving a net benefit from the implementation of the UBI can be expected to increase, but under any reasonable expectations these increases will generally be less, proportionally, than the increase in income. So, there will be a net increase in utility for the net income gainers, though somewhat less than would be expected if you considered pre-UBI price levels. But also because one purpose of UBI is to reduced the disincentive to work created by means-tested social benefit programs, where some portion of the income provided by work is lost in benefits. (In some proposals, UBI would also reduce the barrier to mutually-beneficial employment at low wages provided by minimum wage laws.)
  - DougN7 11y ago
    > $50K is ludicrously high for an early UBI implementation. Sure, I was just picking a number. Let's say it's $5K per person? $25K? (Not sure how it works with families with kids). > actual UBI proposals are redistributive Honest question: is there actually that much in the system without requiring massively raising taxes? A quick look at http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2014/12/federal-spending-by-the-numbers-2014 http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2014/12/federal-spe... seems to show the Federal Budget is maybe 75% social programs in a broad sense, so I assume that's the money that would ultimately get retargeted. Is that enough to give everyone in the US a living income? And I don't mean in the early implementation but 20 years in when it's humming along as envisioned. > these increases will generally be less, proportionally, than the increase in income. How can that be when everyone would be making more money because UBI is added to their income as well. All labor costs would rise for everything. Everyone can't suddenly have more money and all want to go on a cruise without cruise prices increasing to the point that the same number of people that can afford it now will afford it then. I just don't see anyway this works at scale. It only works temporarily but once things hit equilibrium, we're back when we started.
alexashka 11y ago
I'm sure there are many reasons people claim. At the end of the day, people want happy feelings and fewer sad feelings. That's it. Whatever else they claim is born out of the basics. Basic-income is 'the society needs to change for me to have happy feelings and fewer sad feelings'. That's the bottom line. And my point is don't waste your life hoping for society to do something for you. Make your life work in whatever environment you're in. If you're a political entity and can actually push towards implementing basic income - I'd love to hear from you. Otherwise, go live your life :)

dingaling 11y ago

> but don't believe the fairytale of some outside factor making it or breaking it in you achieving success UBI isn't about 'success'. It's about providing an environment in which people can choose to do productive, fruitful things. Or silly, pointless things. Whichever they choose doesn't matter, there's no metric other than it's interesting and fulfilling to them. No boss doing an end-of-year report saying 'well Bill, you contributed to 100 open-source programming projects but none of them contributed to increasing our bottom-line, so unfortunately...' Those who are really fired-up chasing 'success' can go ahead and enrich themselves financially just like they do today. Many, many people don't measure success like that but are forced into behaving as if they do just to achieve the basics of the needs-triangle.