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In the context of the class (The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs), I feel like this is not such an outlandish view. It sounds to me like the

In the context of the class (The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs), I feel like this is not such an outlandish view. It sounds to me like the field of software engineering has simply evolved since the 80s. Don't get me wrong, if you are going for post-graduate studies such a course will always be relevant, but it sounds like he is talking within the context of undergraduates. And in the context of undergraduates, I too would be circumspect of how useful it would be for preparing you for your first job as a Software Engineer. Their choice to go toward a Python-based course at the undergraduate level would also seem to reaffirm this view from afar...

sedachv 10y ago
> It sounds to me like the field of software engineering has simply evolved since the 80s. What is ridiculous in the face of this "programming by experimentation" fantasy is that programming has evolved since the 1980s... to be even more about composable abstractions with provable semantics. Hindley-Milner-Damas types and monads are now everywhere.
- fmstephe 10y ago
  Can you expand on the last sentence. I'm not sure I understand what you were trying to express. (not trolling, genuinely curious)
  - sedachv 10y ago
    The application of mathematical type theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_F) to popular programming languages goes back to 1998 when Philip Wadler designed generics for Java. Local type inference is now used in Visual Basic, Scala, Rust, probably a lot of other new languages I am missing. Gradual types are coming to Clojure and probably Python and Lua. Erik Meijer did a lot of work on bringing monads and FRP as patterns to .NET programmers. Java 8 has monads (Optional and Stream interfaces). Bartosz Milewski has been getting a lot of attention in C++ circles (see his blog: https://bartoszmilewski.com/ https://bartoszmilewski.com/)
    - kazinator 10y ago
      Its application to unpopular languages goes back farther, of course.
    - fmstephe 10y ago
      Great, thanks for the clarification.
- afarrell 10y ago
  > Hindley-Milner-Damas types and monads are now everywhere. Haven't run into those. Perhaps I know them by a different name?
  - Joof 10y ago
    Most likely you have. Or simply something very heavily inspired by either.

sedachv 10y ago

> It sounds to me like the field of software engineering has simply evolved since the 80s. What is ridiculous in the face of this "programming by experimentation" fantasy is that programming has evolved since the 1980s... to be even more about composable abstractions with provable semantics. Hindley-Milner-Damas types and monads are now everywhere.

fmstephe 10y ago
Can you expand on the last sentence. I'm not sure I understand what you were trying to express. (not trolling, genuinely curious)
- sedachv 10y ago
  The application of mathematical type theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_F) to popular programming languages goes back to 1998 when Philip Wadler designed generics for Java. Local type inference is now used in Visual Basic, Scala, Rust, probably a lot of other new languages I am missing. Gradual types are coming to Clojure and probably Python and Lua. Erik Meijer did a lot of work on bringing monads and FRP as patterns to .NET programmers. Java 8 has monads (Optional and Stream interfaces). Bartosz Milewski has been getting a lot of attention in C++ circles (see his blog: https://bartoszmilewski.com/ https://bartoszmilewski.com/)
  - kazinator 10y ago
    Its application to unpopular languages goes back farther, of course.
  - fmstephe 10y ago
    Great, thanks for the clarification.
afarrell 10y ago
> Hindley-Milner-Damas types and monads are now everywhere. Haven't run into those. Perhaps I know them by a different name?
- Joof 10y ago
  Most likely you have. Or simply something very heavily inspired by either.