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I see. I think maybe the difference is enthusiasm? If someone is going into it thinking "It would be really helpful for my work or business to learn Japanese" v

I see. I think maybe the difference is enthusiasm? If someone is going into it thinking "It would be really helpful for my work or business to learn Japanese" versus "Japanese is cool. I would really like to immerse myself in this language and learn how to talk to Japanese people" would merit different results. The business-focused person would be more inclined to trod those traditional routes of instructorship and classes, etc, but being a student of languages myself, as well as knowing 3 of them (sorry if this sounds like I am trying to argue by authority), I can say the latter is the only way you really ever learn a language. My good friend has a PhD in Chinese, (yes that is actually a thing), and he attests to the fact that he didn't grok the language until his travels and studies there, being immersed. Now typing this I realize we may be debating across each other, because even if you believe you can learn on your own better, or having structured courses is better, the real answer is none of it sticks unless you fully immerse yourself in it, self-taught or not.

emodendroket 10y ago
I too have studied several languages, both in high school and in college, as well as some dabbling on my own. The classes alone are not enough, no. But they are a tremendous resource and make it much easier to get where you want to go. You might be able to reach similar levels of language proficiency without the courses but the biggest problems are 1) finding hours and hours a day to drill writing characters and other mundane aspects of learning 2) guidance from an instructor who can tell you whether things that look/sound right are. And also I think a university course also gives you a survey of the literature and culture of that language and insight into it that would be hard to acquire on your own.
- treehau5 10y ago
  But are you fluent in those languages? Sorry I am not trying to come off a presumptuous, I am just trying to emphasize the distinction because I think it is important to bear in mind. If the goal is fluency, do you think that traditional education has succeeded for you? Also how long have you been studying languages? I ask because I am curious if you think that the web, and later, apps, like Duolingo for example, can make a huge difference versus the pre-web era of language learning. Pre-web, I would agree with anyone that yes it would be extremely difficult to learn a language on your own unless you had traditional schooling. But today there is nothing a traditional course in German could give me that I couldn't get from Deutsche Welle, for example (but I also realize there isn't a 'Deutsche Welle' for every language). Sorry if this is going further than you wanted, I am just trying to get different perspectives and it seems like you have a good grasp.
  - emodendroket 10y ago
    I'm hesitant to give too much detail for fear of outing myself here, but: In a few, yes (or at least at one point; I'm sure I've dipped in fluency). In others I am less accomplished. I think traditional education has been very successful for me. I'm not going to argue that it's not possible to graduate with a Japanese degree without being able to carry on a conversation -- it is -- but I think a university program is still a very effective way of not only attaining fluency in the language but also some level of erudition as far literature/culture/etc. I started studying in middle school. I haven't tried the online stuff you're talking about. I'm not sure that they would be just as good.
    - treehau5 10y ago
      If you ever are interested in german, I highly encourage the learn section of deutsche welle, it's among the best. If while you are there, and are aware of any similar websites like that for any other language I would love to know!

emodendroket 10y ago

I too have studied several languages, both in high school and in college, as well as some dabbling on my own. The classes alone are not enough, no. But they are a tremendous resource and make it much easier to get where you want to go. You might be able to reach similar levels of language proficiency without the courses but the biggest problems are 1) finding hours and hours a day to drill writing characters and other mundane aspects of learning 2) guidance from an instructor who can tell you whether things that look/sound right are. And also I think a university course also gives you a survey of the literature and culture of that language and insight into it that would be hard to acquire on your own.

treehau5 10y ago
But are you fluent in those languages? Sorry I am not trying to come off a presumptuous, I am just trying to emphasize the distinction because I think it is important to bear in mind. If the goal is fluency, do you think that traditional education has succeeded for you? Also how long have you been studying languages? I ask because I am curious if you think that the web, and later, apps, like Duolingo for example, can make a huge difference versus the pre-web era of language learning. Pre-web, I would agree with anyone that yes it would be extremely difficult to learn a language on your own unless you had traditional schooling. But today there is nothing a traditional course in German could give me that I couldn't get from Deutsche Welle, for example (but I also realize there isn't a 'Deutsche Welle' for every language). Sorry if this is going further than you wanted, I am just trying to get different perspectives and it seems like you have a good grasp.
- emodendroket 10y ago
  I'm hesitant to give too much detail for fear of outing myself here, but: In a few, yes (or at least at one point; I'm sure I've dipped in fluency). In others I am less accomplished. I think traditional education has been very successful for me. I'm not going to argue that it's not possible to graduate with a Japanese degree without being able to carry on a conversation -- it is -- but I think a university program is still a very effective way of not only attaining fluency in the language but also some level of erudition as far literature/culture/etc. I started studying in middle school. I haven't tried the online stuff you're talking about. I'm not sure that they would be just as good.
  - treehau5 10y ago
    If you ever are interested in german, I highly encourage the learn section of deutsche welle, it's among the best. If while you are there, and are aware of any similar websites like that for any other language I would love to know!