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Part of the problem, though, is on the other side: if a student says, "This (action) causes harm to members of these groups in this way," that student is using

by kaitai 10y ago

Part of the problem, though, is on the other side: if a student says, "This (action) causes harm to members of these groups in this way," that student is using words to start a discussion about the topic at hand. It seems that many people find this discussion itself offensive -- polite people don't talk about racism, sexism, etc., because calling out someone's bad manners is worse than having bad manners in the first place. (That is what my grandfather taught me.) A lot of the students decried in articles like the original are using calm, controlled, verbal arguments to represent their point of view -- but then that's represented as silencing. I guess I do see a generational gap. Young people say, "What you said is an example of a microaggression." Old people hear, "You're a racist so you can't talk, and mentioning this microaggression means I'm so afraid of conflict I can't compete with China in the new world economy, except I just started a conflict by stating the truth as I see it instead of shutting up and rolling over like I would have in the old days, so maybe I can compete with China...?."

egjerlow 10y ago
I think what is troubling, if anything, to the 'old people' (and probably not just those), is that when arguments such as this starts getting validity beyond being appeals to civility - i.e. when someone is effectively able to stop discussion of a subject because they claim to be 'harmed' by it - it completely changes the context of the discussion and IMO, hinders constructive discourse. So, if safe spaces are to be a 'thing', then we have to be very clear that they must have a very well-defined limit, beyond which regular discourse can continue.
- kaitai 10y ago
  Agreed!
talmand 10y ago
It's not that "old people" think they hear such things, in some cases those things are actually stated. That's the problem as I see it, the people who use calm, controlled, verbal arguments are drowned out by the idiots who think shutting down opposing viewpoints is justified. These idiots exist in all spectrums of discussion of any topic, some are just louder than others. The calm ones tend to, unfortunately, get lumped into that crowd.
mcphage 10y ago
> if a student says, "This (action) causes harm to members of these groups in this way," that student is using words to start a discussion about the topic at hand. Are they? Which discussion are they starting? I don't think I've seen that lead to a discussion about whether it not it actually causes harm, but instead it's for starting a discussion about what to do about the harm that it's presumed to be causing.

by kaitai 10y ago

egjerlow 10y ago

I think what is troubling, if anything, to the 'old people' (and probably not just those), is that when arguments such as this starts getting validity beyond being appeals to civility - i.e. when someone is effectively able to stop discussion of a subject because they claim to be 'harmed' by it - it completely changes the context of the discussion and IMO, hinders constructive discourse. So, if safe spaces are to be a 'thing', then we have to be very clear that they must have a very well-defined limit, beyond which regular discourse can continue.

kaitai 10y ago
Agreed!

talmand 10y ago

It's not that "old people" think they hear such things, in some cases those things are actually stated. That's the problem as I see it, the people who use calm, controlled, verbal arguments are drowned out by the idiots who think shutting down opposing viewpoints is justified. These idiots exist in all spectrums of discussion of any topic, some are just louder than others. The calm ones tend to, unfortunately, get lumped into that crowd.

mcphage 10y ago

> if a student says, "This (action) causes harm to members of these groups in this way," that student is using words to start a discussion about the topic at hand. Are they? Which discussion are they starting? I don't think I've seen that lead to a discussion about whether it not it actually causes harm, but instead it's for starting a discussion about what to do about the harm that it's presumed to be causing.