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Yes, I'm aware of how both immediate mode and vertex arrays work in OpenGL. The problem, and this is even getting away from what the article addresses, is that

by xigency 10y ago

Yes, I'm aware of how both immediate mode and vertex arrays work in OpenGL. The problem, and this is even getting away from what the article addresses, is that a green developer approaching the application must learn an entirely new language (shaders) before drawing a single primitive. In mattbee's example, what is the beginner supposed to think of the line "#version 410" or "in vec3 vp" which is not even C code? I'm also not saying that all of the legacy functions from the fixed-function pipeline should be maintained, with all of their specific parameters, but that those attributes should be bound with a default shader that supports all of the same capabilities. So, using GLSL attribute accessors with each platform having the same default shader (and default parameter names). Then, wrap the IM example in arrays, call a few binds, and make a draw call. That's much simpler than writing two embedded programs inside your first program. I think it would have been very beneficial if OpenGL ES had been rolled out with a design like this. Maybe it's because graphics programming is so feature focused that it creates a problem. For me, the issue is the obstacles between getting shapes on the screen, especially in contexts like WebGL or mobile.

angersock 10y ago
The beginner needs to rise to the task. GLSL isn't complex at all, least of all because its problem domain is basically pure math. It should take less than an afternoon to understand how to write a shader if they have any familiarity with math. If they don't know math, they shouldn't be doing shader programming until they learn.
- xigency 10y ago
  Writing a fixed function shader is to learning graphics programming what writing a Makefile is to learning C++. I'm not saying it's not important, or not important in the long run, but what introductory programming book would start out showing how to use a linker instead of how to write a program? In this case things are compounded by the fact that there is no linker, which means the programmer has to shuffle around string programs at runtime. I agree, though, that shader writing should help with learning 3D math. Saying GLSL is not complex is a bit of an overstatement, though. The language is simple, but the fact is that GLSL doesn't behave like C with certain statements, and not knowing everything will make things complicated. You've also described a chicken-and-egg problem. Can't make a 3D app till you learn GLSL, can't use GLSL until you make a 3D app. It also feels absurd to be writing any static language code wrapped in a string, in JavaScript, to be sent to a GPU and then compiled. The user doesn't have newlines, let alone syntax highlighting. Sure, most WebGL developers will just use Three.js but then they aren't really learning anything, anyway, and we still have these patchwork solutions.
  - angersock 10y ago
    I disagree that it's inappropriate for beginners, and comparing it to a build system is incorrect. Shaders are a step in the pipeline. Beginners should be learning the pipeline: 1. Geometry is instantiated and draw parameters set. 2. Geometry vertices are transformed by a vertex shader. 3. Transformed vertices in primitive are used to sample across its geometry, producing pixel fragments. 4. Pixel fragments are transformed by a fragment shader. 5. Transformed fragments are written to a framebuffer. That's the whole thing, and GLSL neatly handles 2-4. Step 1 is a kinda pain in the ass, but not terrible. Step 5 is usually simple, but no worse than 1. We shouldn't be protecting users from dealing with the (simple) facts of life in a graphics pipeline. As for Javacsript not having multi-line strings...that's hardly the fault of WebGL, and honestly the simplicity of passing around strings means that as the language gets more interesting support (for interpolations and whatever) the API will be unaffected.
    - xigency 10y ago
      It's a stretch to say that GLSL shaders are broken, since they are functional and every OpenGL application uses them, but it's hard to say that they are implemented in a logical way as they are now, especially at a topical glance.
  - datenwolf 10y ago
    > but what introductory programming book would start out showing how to use a linker instead of how to write a program? A good one! Just take a glance over at StackOverflow and consider how many questions there essentially boil down to lack of understanding how the pieces in the compiler toolchain fit together: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=stackoverflow.com%20undefined%20reference http://lmgtfy.com/?q=stackoverflow.com%20undefined%20referen... In workshop class a teacher will also start with explaining how to properly handle a tool before showing how to apply said tool to a problem.
    - xigency 10y ago
      You're skirting around the issue. The original comment was - "When writing my first OpenGL code, I was stunned by the amount of boilerplate required." Your response was - "the amount of boilerplate required ... is minimal." It's clearly not minimal because we've outlined ways it could be reduced. Your counter-example of writing larger programs doesn't solve the issue of drawing a single triangle. Don't confuse a local minima for a global minima and don't confuse your experience with every noobie's experience. Although I would say it looks minimal compared to an early D3D application.

by xigency 10y ago

angersock 10y ago

The beginner needs to rise to the task. GLSL isn't complex at all, least of all because its problem domain is basically pure math. It should take less than an afternoon to understand how to write a shader if they have any familiarity with math. If they don't know math, they shouldn't be doing shader programming until they learn.

xigency 10y ago
Writing a fixed function shader is to learning graphics programming what writing a Makefile is to learning C++. I'm not saying it's not important, or not important in the long run, but what introductory programming book would start out showing how to use a linker instead of how to write a program? In this case things are compounded by the fact that there is no linker, which means the programmer has to shuffle around string programs at runtime. I agree, though, that shader writing should help with learning 3D math. Saying GLSL is not complex is a bit of an overstatement, though. The language is simple, but the fact is that GLSL doesn't behave like C with certain statements, and not knowing everything will make things complicated. You've also described a chicken-and-egg problem. Can't make a 3D app till you learn GLSL, can't use GLSL until you make a 3D app. It also feels absurd to be writing any static language code wrapped in a string, in JavaScript, to be sent to a GPU and then compiled. The user doesn't have newlines, let alone syntax highlighting. Sure, most WebGL developers will just use Three.js but then they aren't really learning anything, anyway, and we still have these patchwork solutions.
- angersock 10y ago
  I disagree that it's inappropriate for beginners, and comparing it to a build system is incorrect. Shaders are a step in the pipeline. Beginners should be learning the pipeline: 1. Geometry is instantiated and draw parameters set. 2. Geometry vertices are transformed by a vertex shader. 3. Transformed vertices in primitive are used to sample across its geometry, producing pixel fragments. 4. Pixel fragments are transformed by a fragment shader. 5. Transformed fragments are written to a framebuffer. That's the whole thing, and GLSL neatly handles 2-4. Step 1 is a kinda pain in the ass, but not terrible. Step 5 is usually simple, but no worse than 1. We shouldn't be protecting users from dealing with the (simple) facts of life in a graphics pipeline. As for Javacsript not having multi-line strings...that's hardly the fault of WebGL, and honestly the simplicity of passing around strings means that as the language gets more interesting support (for interpolations and whatever) the API will be unaffected.
  - xigency 10y ago
    It's a stretch to say that GLSL shaders are broken, since they are functional and every OpenGL application uses them, but it's hard to say that they are implemented in a logical way as they are now, especially at a topical glance.
- datenwolf 10y ago
  > but what introductory programming book would start out showing how to use a linker instead of how to write a program? A good one! Just take a glance over at StackOverflow and consider how many questions there essentially boil down to lack of understanding how the pieces in the compiler toolchain fit together: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=stackoverflow.com%20undefined%20reference http://lmgtfy.com/?q=stackoverflow.com%20undefined%20referen... In workshop class a teacher will also start with explaining how to properly handle a tool before showing how to apply said tool to a problem.
  - xigency 10y ago
    You're skirting around the issue. The original comment was - "When writing my first OpenGL code, I was stunned by the amount of boilerplate required." Your response was - "the amount of boilerplate required ... is minimal." It's clearly not minimal because we've outlined ways it could be reduced. Your counter-example of writing larger programs doesn't solve the issue of drawing a single triangle. Don't confuse a local minima for a global minima and don't confuse your experience with every noobie's experience. Although I would say it looks minimal compared to an early D3D application.