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At which point would it be financially beneficial for a farmer to turn a field into a solar farm rather than plant a crop? I have no knowledge in economics of

by giarc 11y ago

At which point would it be financially beneficial for a farmer to turn a field into a solar farm rather than plant a crop? I have no knowledge in economics of either so I couldn't even estimate.

MichaelBurge 11y ago
I think you get fined if you do that.
- lotsofQs333 11y ago
  Where? Even if this was true, surely it would depend on where you live, yeah? Country and local laws would vary? The questions was what it would cost a farmer, not farmer in place where it's obviously illegal? What...
  - riffraff 11y ago
    Just for the sake of trivial knowledge (your comment is obviously correct that it varies) it is actually forbidden in Sardinia (Italy) to replace farmland with solar power fields. You are only allowed to setup photovoltaic panels if you have plants below them (asparagus and some flowers grow fine, apparently). I have no idea why.
- mikestew 11y ago
  Care to explain? Because unless you're arguing along the lines of something something farm subsidies, I'm pretty sure you're wrong.
  - MichaelBurge 11y ago
    Usually farmland is zoned only for farmland use. You need an inspector to approve any building, and it must be related to farm use. In Oregon, here's the list of allowed uses of farmland: http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/215.213 http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/215.213 You could probably install solar panels for the purpose of powering your house and farm equipment, but you couldn't install solar panels everywhere and sell the electricity to the public: "Utility facilities necessary for public service, including wetland waste treatment systems but not including commercial facilities for the purpose of generating electrical power for public use by sale or transmission towers over 200 feet in height." It's not just a local thing: Maybe there are places where it doesn't hold, but the government wants to ensure the US isn't dependent on other countries for food. So it puts restrictions on the farmland to ensure that there's always enough food available. OTOH, if by 'farmland', you meant 'desert in Nevada', I can't imagine anyone would care if you bought it up and installed panels there.
    - mikestew 11y ago
      Thanks. It's been so long since I've lived in farm land that I forgot about "let's not turn farm land into subdivisions" zoning.
imglorp 11y ago
On a related note, an agricultural high school near me has a field dedicated to solar panels, that powers most of the school buildings. The students are learning how to farm photons alongside corn. http://solarbuildermag.com/news/church-farm-school-in-pennsylvania-gets-1-1-mw-solar-array/ http://solarbuildermag.com/news/church-farm-school-in-pennsy...
Tloewald 11y ago
I think the economics of food production will probably trounce that of power production. In any event, it's more efficient to stick solar panels in the desert and wire electricity to places that are less sunny.
- frandroid 11y ago
  The Gulf states are the most polluting per capita on the planet, so great planetary benefit can be derived even just by using the power where it's generated.
Retric 11y ago
Diminishing returns mean you end up covering deserts with solar before farm land. Next, highly marginal farm land. On the other hand, wind farms have a tiny footprint so that's already a major thing in some areas.
- wmeredith 11y ago
  RE: Windfarms This has been a dramatic change in the US midwest landscape over the last decade. When driving through Iowa or Kansas these days, the horizon is constantly dotted with wind turbines nestled in amongst the corn fields or livestock pastures. 15 years ago this was NOT the case.
  - eganist 11y ago
    Yup. You can even see it from the air. With ever-increasing turbine sizes, these things are easily visible from 39,000 ft.
  - maxerickson 11y ago
    I don't see a way to link it directly but the layers on this map can be adjusted to show the many wind and solar projects in the US: http://www.eia.gov/state/maps.cfm http://www.eia.gov/state/maps.cfm
SwellJoe 11y ago
There's a lot of farmland and ranch land in the US that shouldn't be farmland or ranch land. They're too dry, too hot, and competing for water resources with people and natural (sometimes endangered) ecosystems. So, maybe it's something that should be encouraged; the food those farms and ranches produce would need to be replaced by food grown in more appropriate climates, and we'd need to rethink our recent "local food" movement, in some regards, but agriculture, and particularly animal agriculture, are an ecological disaster almost everywhere they exist. Couple that with limited water resources (where a lot of agriculture takes place in California, Texas, Arizona, and New Mexico) and you've got a recipe for serious problems long-term. That said, agriculture could also shift. Less water-intensive foods, more foods that are appropriate for the area they're being consumed in. Anyway, I think solar farms replacing agricultural farms could be a net win for the environment, even before considering the improvements that come from turning off coal-fired plants.
- nashashmi 11y ago
  Hah! Only if dictatorship could ordain things to be done so correctly. Unfortunately we live in a capitalistic democracy.
  - richmarr 11y ago
    Where do you live? How come your goverment isn't able to control taxation, or its regulatory environment?
  - SwellJoe 11y ago
    Are you sincere in your belief that only a dictatorship could lead to more environmentally responsible agriculture and land use in the US? It seems like trolling, but if you're sincere, I could point you to some references on how our current laws reward irresponsible water and land use in many cases. There are many things a "capitalistic democracy" (if that's really what we are living in, which I also think is debatable) can do, and many things that are already being done, to guide how land owners utilize their land. The unintended consequences of current agricultural and water-use law in places like some parts of California, which have experienced more years of drought than years of normal rainfall for more than a decade, have been pretty significant. Government at local, state, and federal levels, have helped create the problems I'm talking about, so why shouldn't they be able to help alleviate them?
tinco 11y ago
Well the farmer doing it himself wouldn't be financially attractive (too big setup costs). But if the farmer is the land owner then he could rent it out to a power business that are good for the upfront costs. The exact point that would happen is when all the cheaper (non-arable) available land is already covered. That might have already happened in specific locations and countries. Note that at the moment upfront costs (the panels) are so expensive it will be a long time before solar panel 'fields' would become any significant fraction of total arable land. I.E. a simple few acre farm field might be worth a couple hundred thousand euros, but totally filling it with panels might cost billions.
mrfusion 11y ago
Or do both! Grow mushrooms under the panels.
- Detect 11y ago
  Raise panels up a bit and can graze animals underneath them too.
  - DamnYuppie 11y ago
    Cows would tear them up pretty quickly by rubbing up against them. Not saying they couldn't be re-enforced but I just wouldn't stick em out in a field with livestock.
  - sokoloff 11y ago
    The grass under/behind the panels would grow using what light source? I have a hard time growing grass under some shade trees that are far from opaque and along a [solid, south-facing] fence line.
spiderfarmer 11y ago
In arid regions with a low crop per acre yield it's beneficial right now. If the farmer has the money to finance it by himself it's almost certainly beneficial. But ofcourse it's better to just put them on your roof. In Germany and The Netherlands most farmers have solar panels on their (quite large) barns.
stale2002 11y ago
This is a common mistake that people make, especially when talking about fancy, flashy technologies, like drive way solar panels, road solar panels, ect We do not have a shortage of land or places to put solar panels. Land is cheap, cheap, cheap compared to the other costs of solar panels. There is no need to come up with fancy schemes to convert roads or windows or farms or whatever to solar panels. We aren't running out of land for them any time soon.
epistasis 11y ago
Farmland is already being converted, with predictable NIMBY reactions: http://watchdog.org/191942/critics-want-sunshine-huge-mn-solar-power-project/ http://watchdog.org/191942/critics-want-sunshine-huge-mn-sol... http://www.startribune.com/big-solar-parks-proposed-for-minnesota-not-so-popular-with-neighbors/297894931/ http://www.startribune.com/big-solar-parks-proposed-for-minn... Including "prime" farmland: http://www.mprnews.org/story/2016/02/03/opponents-want-minnesota-solar-farm-plan-stopped http://www.mprnews.org/story/2016/02/03/opponents-want-minne...

by giarc 11y ago

At which point would it be financially beneficial for a farmer to turn a field into a solar farm rather than plant a crop? I have no knowledge in economics of either so I couldn't even estimate.

MichaelBurge 11y ago

I think you get fined if you do that.

lotsofQs333 11y ago
Where? Even if this was true, surely it would depend on where you live, yeah? Country and local laws would vary? The questions was what it would cost a farmer, not farmer in place where it's obviously illegal? What...
- riffraff 11y ago
  Just for the sake of trivial knowledge (your comment is obviously correct that it varies) it is actually forbidden in Sardinia (Italy) to replace farmland with solar power fields. You are only allowed to setup photovoltaic panels if you have plants below them (asparagus and some flowers grow fine, apparently). I have no idea why.
mikestew 11y ago
Care to explain? Because unless you're arguing along the lines of something something farm subsidies, I'm pretty sure you're wrong.
- MichaelBurge 11y ago
  Usually farmland is zoned only for farmland use. You need an inspector to approve any building, and it must be related to farm use. In Oregon, here's the list of allowed uses of farmland: http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/215.213 http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/215.213 You could probably install solar panels for the purpose of powering your house and farm equipment, but you couldn't install solar panels everywhere and sell the electricity to the public: "Utility facilities necessary for public service, including wetland waste treatment systems but not including commercial facilities for the purpose of generating electrical power for public use by sale or transmission towers over 200 feet in height." It's not just a local thing: Maybe there are places where it doesn't hold, but the government wants to ensure the US isn't dependent on other countries for food. So it puts restrictions on the farmland to ensure that there's always enough food available. OTOH, if by 'farmland', you meant 'desert in Nevada', I can't imagine anyone would care if you bought it up and installed panels there.
  - mikestew 11y ago
    Thanks. It's been so long since I've lived in farm land that I forgot about "let's not turn farm land into subdivisions" zoning.

imglorp 11y ago

On a related note, an agricultural high school near me has a field dedicated to solar panels, that powers most of the school buildings. The students are learning how to farm photons alongside corn. http://solarbuildermag.com/news/church-farm-school-in-pennsylvania-gets-1-1-mw-solar-array/ http://solarbuildermag.com/news/church-farm-school-in-pennsy...

Tloewald 11y ago

I think the economics of food production will probably trounce that of power production. In any event, it's more efficient to stick solar panels in the desert and wire electricity to places that are less sunny.

frandroid 11y ago
The Gulf states are the most polluting per capita on the planet, so great planetary benefit can be derived even just by using the power where it's generated.

Retric 11y ago

Diminishing returns mean you end up covering deserts with solar before farm land. Next, highly marginal farm land. On the other hand, wind farms have a tiny footprint so that's already a major thing in some areas.

wmeredith 11y ago
RE: Windfarms This has been a dramatic change in the US midwest landscape over the last decade. When driving through Iowa or Kansas these days, the horizon is constantly dotted with wind turbines nestled in amongst the corn fields or livestock pastures. 15 years ago this was NOT the case.
- eganist 11y ago
  Yup. You can even see it from the air. With ever-increasing turbine sizes, these things are easily visible from 39,000 ft.
- maxerickson 11y ago
  I don't see a way to link it directly but the layers on this map can be adjusted to show the many wind and solar projects in the US: http://www.eia.gov/state/maps.cfm http://www.eia.gov/state/maps.cfm

SwellJoe 11y ago

There's a lot of farmland and ranch land in the US that shouldn't be farmland or ranch land. They're too dry, too hot, and competing for water resources with people and natural (sometimes endangered) ecosystems. So, maybe it's something that should be encouraged; the food those farms and ranches produce would need to be replaced by food grown in more appropriate climates, and we'd need to rethink our recent "local food" movement, in some regards, but agriculture, and particularly animal agriculture, are an ecological disaster almost everywhere they exist. Couple that with limited water resources (where a lot of agriculture takes place in California, Texas, Arizona, and New Mexico) and you've got a recipe for serious problems long-term. That said, agriculture could also shift. Less water-intensive foods, more foods that are appropriate for the area they're being consumed in. Anyway, I think solar farms replacing agricultural farms could be a net win for the environment, even before considering the improvements that come from turning off coal-fired plants.

nashashmi 11y ago
Hah! Only if dictatorship could ordain things to be done so correctly. Unfortunately we live in a capitalistic democracy.
- richmarr 11y ago
  Where do you live? How come your goverment isn't able to control taxation, or its regulatory environment?
- SwellJoe 11y ago
  Are you sincere in your belief that only a dictatorship could lead to more environmentally responsible agriculture and land use in the US? It seems like trolling, but if you're sincere, I could point you to some references on how our current laws reward irresponsible water and land use in many cases. There are many things a "capitalistic democracy" (if that's really what we are living in, which I also think is debatable) can do, and many things that are already being done, to guide how land owners utilize their land. The unintended consequences of current agricultural and water-use law in places like some parts of California, which have experienced more years of drought than years of normal rainfall for more than a decade, have been pretty significant. Government at local, state, and federal levels, have helped create the problems I'm talking about, so why shouldn't they be able to help alleviate them?

tinco 11y ago

Well the farmer doing it himself wouldn't be financially attractive (too big setup costs). But if the farmer is the land owner then he could rent it out to a power business that are good for the upfront costs. The exact point that would happen is when all the cheaper (non-arable) available land is already covered. That might have already happened in specific locations and countries. Note that at the moment upfront costs (the panels) are so expensive it will be a long time before solar panel 'fields' would become any significant fraction of total arable land. I.E. a simple few acre farm field might be worth a couple hundred thousand euros, but totally filling it with panels might cost billions.

mrfusion 11y ago

Or do both! Grow mushrooms under the panels.

Detect 11y ago
Raise panels up a bit and can graze animals underneath them too.
- DamnYuppie 11y ago
  Cows would tear them up pretty quickly by rubbing up against them. Not saying they couldn't be re-enforced but I just wouldn't stick em out in a field with livestock.
- sokoloff 11y ago
  The grass under/behind the panels would grow using what light source? I have a hard time growing grass under some shade trees that are far from opaque and along a [solid, south-facing] fence line.

spiderfarmer 11y ago

In arid regions with a low crop per acre yield it's beneficial right now. If the farmer has the money to finance it by himself it's almost certainly beneficial. But ofcourse it's better to just put them on your roof. In Germany and The Netherlands most farmers have solar panels on their (quite large) barns.

stale2002 11y ago

This is a common mistake that people make, especially when talking about fancy, flashy technologies, like drive way solar panels, road solar panels, ect We do not have a shortage of land or places to put solar panels. Land is cheap, cheap, cheap compared to the other costs of solar panels. There is no need to come up with fancy schemes to convert roads or windows or farms or whatever to solar panels. We aren't running out of land for them any time soon.

epistasis 11y ago

Farmland is already being converted, with predictable NIMBY reactions: http://watchdog.org/191942/critics-want-sunshine-huge-mn-solar-power-project/ http://watchdog.org/191942/critics-want-sunshine-huge-mn-sol... http://www.startribune.com/big-solar-parks-proposed-for-minnesota-not-so-popular-with-neighbors/297894931/ http://www.startribune.com/big-solar-parks-proposed-for-minn... Including "prime" farmland: http://www.mprnews.org/story/2016/02/03/opponents-want-minnesota-solar-farm-plan-stopped http://www.mprnews.org/story/2016/02/03/opponents-want-minne...