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There will always be work that some find unglamorous but has to be done. I doubt that garbage collectors see their job as a higher calling or a passion, and yet

by nkohari 10y ago

There will always be work that some find unglamorous but has to be done. I doubt that garbage collectors see their job as a higher calling or a passion, and yet without solid waste collection society would literally collapse. Somehow, you're assigning lesser intrinsic value to lawn mowing than you are to (eg.) jobs in STEM. Society may have assigned a lesser monetary value to it, but that's a function of supply and demand, and not a suggestion that the job is somehow "lesser" in some way. It doesn't make sense to judge another person's job decisions using your own value system. Many (perhaps even most?) people see their job as a means to an end -- a way to make money to do the things they love. That's a perfectly reasonable and honorable way to live your life. What we do need is equal access to the means to do other things. If you're interested, capable, and willing to have a career in (eg.) STEM, you should be able to do so without having to fight the socioeconomic conditions into which you were born.

macawfish 10y ago
I bet you anything there are people who love collecting garbage. Driving huge trucks, being in tune with the scale of human life, seeing the guts of the city, routine... some people love that kind of thing. Where I'm from, there are people who go around picking up trash at the local park out of personal fulfillment in their spare time. They enjoy making the park beautiful. Where do you read me assigning more value to STEM work? You're totally injecting that into what I wrote. On the contrary, I'm saying that all work can be fulfilling, not just STEM work. But all work can also be degrading if it forces people to compromise themselves unreasonably.
- nkohari 10y ago
  I meant the STEM work as an example (hence the eg.) -- sorry if I wasn't more clear. You could just as easily substitute any "skilled" profession -- medicine, etc. All work can certainly be fulfilling, but more because of the reasons I described (it's a means to an end) than the reasons you're describing. Certainly, people shouldn't be forced to take particularly degrading jobs when they don't want to in order to survive. But do they find it degrading, or do you? Those are two very different things. It's impossible that there are enough people in the world passionate about garbage collection -- allocated perfectly across the correct geographic regions, mind you -- to fill all of the available positions.
  - gnaritas 10y ago
    > It's impossible that there are enough people in the world passionate about garbage collection -- allocated perfectly across the correct geographic regions, mind you -- to fill all of the available positions. And you base this claim on what?
    - nkohari 10y ago
      It's just my opinion, and I have no factual basis. It's an appeal to common sense, but I stand by it nonetheless.
      - gnaritas 10y ago
        Well, given that people right now tend to mostly do whatever makes them the most money, it's impossible to quantify how many people might like doing gargabe that aren't just because they're doing something else for the money. If no one had to work and only did what they wanted, no one has any idea how the numbers might play out for who wants to do what. It's entirely possible there's plenty of people who might like driving those big trucks enough to do it. I'm not saying it's likely, but it's certainly not "impossible."
- aninhumer 10y ago
  I think the mere fact that someone knows they don't need their job to survive can help them enjoy it a lot more. Also I think a side effect of Basic Income will be greatly increased quality of jobs, because I'd imagine for a lot of jobs, making them less shitty is a lot more attractive for the cost than a higher wage. For example, a lot of service jobs have polices of putting up with extremely obnoxious behaviour, because it marginally increases revenue at the expense of the employee's sanity, which is effectively free. But if you're not quite as desperate for a job, you're much more able to price that in, and choose to work for less at the restaurant next door, that lets you tell jerks to GTFO.

by nkohari 10y ago

macawfish 10y ago

I bet you anything there are people who love collecting garbage. Driving huge trucks, being in tune with the scale of human life, seeing the guts of the city, routine... some people love that kind of thing. Where I'm from, there are people who go around picking up trash at the local park out of personal fulfillment in their spare time. They enjoy making the park beautiful. Where do you read me assigning more value to STEM work? You're totally injecting that into what I wrote. On the contrary, I'm saying that all work can be fulfilling, not just STEM work. But all work can also be degrading if it forces people to compromise themselves unreasonably.

nkohari 10y ago
I meant the STEM work as an example (hence the eg.) -- sorry if I wasn't more clear. You could just as easily substitute any "skilled" profession -- medicine, etc. All work can certainly be fulfilling, but more because of the reasons I described (it's a means to an end) than the reasons you're describing. Certainly, people shouldn't be forced to take particularly degrading jobs when they don't want to in order to survive. But do they find it degrading, or do you? Those are two very different things. It's impossible that there are enough people in the world passionate about garbage collection -- allocated perfectly across the correct geographic regions, mind you -- to fill all of the available positions.
- gnaritas 10y ago
  > It's impossible that there are enough people in the world passionate about garbage collection -- allocated perfectly across the correct geographic regions, mind you -- to fill all of the available positions. And you base this claim on what?
  - nkohari 10y ago
    It's just my opinion, and I have no factual basis. It's an appeal to common sense, but I stand by it nonetheless.
    - gnaritas 10y ago
      Well, given that people right now tend to mostly do whatever makes them the most money, it's impossible to quantify how many people might like doing gargabe that aren't just because they're doing something else for the money. If no one had to work and only did what they wanted, no one has any idea how the numbers might play out for who wants to do what. It's entirely possible there's plenty of people who might like driving those big trucks enough to do it. I'm not saying it's likely, but it's certainly not "impossible."
aninhumer 10y ago
I think the mere fact that someone knows they don't need their job to survive can help them enjoy it a lot more. Also I think a side effect of Basic Income will be greatly increased quality of jobs, because I'd imagine for a lot of jobs, making them less shitty is a lot more attractive for the cost than a higher wage. For example, a lot of service jobs have polices of putting up with extremely obnoxious behaviour, because it marginally increases revenue at the expense of the employee's sanity, which is effectively free. But if you're not quite as desperate for a job, you're much more able to price that in, and choose to work for less at the restaurant next door, that lets you tell jerks to GTFO.