5 ms·

For real frugality, I'd like to see much more innovation supporting non-collocated teams. The advantages are huge for everyone to work from home: no offices, no

For real frugality, I'd like to see much more innovation supporting non-collocated teams. The advantages are huge for everyone to work from home: no offices, no commute, recruit from anywhere without relocation. Instant messaging isn't enough. 10 years ago we had always on video phones and such. What is state of the art today?

RHSeeger 10y ago
> no offices Don't forget that, in working from home, you do want to have an office; its just a home office. For a lot of people, that means paying more for a home with an office room. Overall, working from home doesn't save money, it saves time (which is, at least to me, worth more than the extra money is costs to work from home).
- zeemonkee3 10y ago
  To an extent, but at a pinch I can work on the sofa with a laptop. Peace and quiet are really the most important things - I find it difficult to do "deep" work in a crowded cafe, although I can do some trivial stuff like tidying up code, answering emails and so on. Depending on your locale and situation, you might get tax breaks and/or company subsidies for a home office and equipment as well.
- leetrout 10y ago
  Yes, having a dedicated working space is very important. I think when you have people that work remote and cover their own working environment costs it is cheaper for the company on the whole. But if the company is assisting remote work, e.g. paying for coworking space with an allowance that is probably still cheaper. Consider a team of 10... Even at a $200 / mo allowance for coworking that it still only 20~30% of what it would cost per month for a decent space in most major cities and there's no long term commitment. So I think when you scale it out for small to medium teams it is cheaper and would be cheaper for a lot of startups that weren't already in a shared space.
  - duncanawoods 10y ago
    Yep. Even if every employee worked in their own coworking space, the advantage is that they can choose one within walking distance of their front door. No-one needs to cause carnage to their family life if they are forced to change jobs multiple times. The idea that to find a job, you have to relocate and separate your children from their friends, clubs and schooling is quite horrifying really.
- akadien 10y ago
  I've been a remote worker for over four years, and my experience is this statement is partially true. With a laptop and wifi connection, I can work from any location where I am most productive. Spending every day in the same spare bedroom kills creativity, and a laptop can go anywhere that spurs it. It saves money if you cast off things you don't need, such as an extra car (my wife and I now car share), business casual clothing, eating out, &c, and if you live somewhere cheap. I live somewhere cheap (Louisiana), so I have a house with a couple of spare bedrooms from which to work.
- rebekah-aimee 10y ago
  But then all your programmers have private offices, which has been thoroughly established as dramatically important to productivity, as well as a bargaining chip in recruiting the best people. http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/FieldGuidetoDevelopers.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/FieldGuidetoDeveloper... (Kind of old, but still applicable.) Supplying an allowance to rent somewhere with a good workspace or set up an office is still mostly cheaper than renting an inner-city space with private offices... and then you don't have issues with VCs thinking you're burning their money unnecessarily.
  - gohrt 10y ago
    Does Microsoft have the best people? Or does massive pay and moonshot projects outweigh a private office for most of the best?
    - slededit 10y ago
      That really depends on the time period and specific team within Microsoft. Working on Excel in the mid-90s (where Joel worked as a PM) is a significantly different experience than being on the windows installer team today.
was_boring 10y ago
Always on webrtc, screen sharing and realtime document collaboration. There are remote controlled robots with iPad faces, but I think those are more of a gimmick. So really just evolutionary, nothing revolutionary.
mgkimsal 10y ago
Optionally, consider actual co-located teams in cheaper areas. I fully support expanded virtual teams, but there are some benefits to co-location as well, and investing in long-term co-location areas, even in other parts of the US, would be a step towards getting the benefits of both co-location and lower costs. You might even be expanding the labor pool to include some culture that isn't an SV echo chamber (potentially cheap-shot, I know).
- morgante 10y ago
  The problem with co-locating teams in cheaper areas is that it drastically reduces your supply of labor. A lot of developers already live in the Bay Area and even more are willing to move there. Relatively few live in Dayton, Ohio (random example) and even fewer are willing to live there. The advantage of remote working is you can draw from talent all over the world (or at least all over the US) without having to worry about the fact that a lot of people would be unwilling to live in your particular LCOL area.
  - vonmoltke 10y ago
    > The problem with co-locating teams in cheaper areas is that it drastically reduces your supply of labor. A lot of developers already live in the Bay Area and even more are willing to move there. You say this, but others say there is a chronic shortage of talent in the area. Having the largest concentration of X does no good if local demand is X+Y. I personally will not go near the Bay Area for less than $200k base. Considering the Bay Area exodus story posted yesterday, it sounds like there are thousands of people with similar opinions. > Relatively few live in Dayton, Ohio (random example) and even fewer are willing to live there. Fortunately Dayton is one of hundreds of decent-sized metro areas that are not the Bay Area. Every one has negatives and every one has people not willing to move there. So does the Bay Area. > The advantage of remote working is you can draw from talent all over the world (or at least all over the US) without having to worry about the fact that a lot of people would be unwilling to live in your particular LCOL area. I think the idea is to do clusters. Do light offices in any metro area where you hire more than one person. It provides the flexibility of a distributed team with the benefits of having some people colocated.
jondubois 10y ago
That's pretty much what Gigster (https://gigster.com/ https://gigster.com/) (YC) is about. Developers on Gigster are often able to work fewer hours and yet are more productive - As a developer, you can work from anywhere. It gives you the freedom to live outside of major urban centers where rent is cheaper.
kdamken 10y ago
This 1000x. Having an office space might make you feel like a "real company", but then again so will turning a profit. Having your own custom office space can be very expensive, especially if it's tricked out with all the stereotypical Silicon Valley amenities. The funny part is, most people don't care about those and would prefer to work remotely. So, you're paying more money to make things worse for employees. Additionally, if you're all in the relative area of a city and really need to meet there are often coworking spaces you can use.
- mason55 10y ago
  > most people ... would prefer to work remotely. I'm really curious about this. I did full remote for about 3 months and I thought I was going to go crazy.
  - ryanx435 10y ago
    I agree. I work from home, but also rent an office downtown because the value of actually getting dressed, leaving my house, and interacting with people is worth more than the monthly rent.
    - Smeevy 10y ago
      Pretty much the same here. I ditched my 45-minute commute and rented 1-person office about .5 miles from my house about a year ago. I can choose to have lunch with my wife and I got back 90 minutes of my life every day. I find that I'm more productive and focused when I'm "at work." I have to overcome so many distractions at home that it feels like "trying to work." Big difference.
  - toomuchtodo 10y ago
    I've been doing full remote for two years and I'd never go back to an office.
  - fzzzy 10y ago
    I worked in an office for a few years and I thought I was going to go crazy.

RHSeeger 10y ago

> no offices Don't forget that, in working from home, you do want to have an office; its just a home office. For a lot of people, that means paying more for a home with an office room. Overall, working from home doesn't save money, it saves time (which is, at least to me, worth more than the extra money is costs to work from home).

zeemonkee3 10y ago
To an extent, but at a pinch I can work on the sofa with a laptop. Peace and quiet are really the most important things - I find it difficult to do "deep" work in a crowded cafe, although I can do some trivial stuff like tidying up code, answering emails and so on. Depending on your locale and situation, you might get tax breaks and/or company subsidies for a home office and equipment as well.
leetrout 10y ago
Yes, having a dedicated working space is very important. I think when you have people that work remote and cover their own working environment costs it is cheaper for the company on the whole. But if the company is assisting remote work, e.g. paying for coworking space with an allowance that is probably still cheaper. Consider a team of 10... Even at a $200 / mo allowance for coworking that it still only 20~30% of what it would cost per month for a decent space in most major cities and there's no long term commitment. So I think when you scale it out for small to medium teams it is cheaper and would be cheaper for a lot of startups that weren't already in a shared space.
- duncanawoods 10y ago
  Yep. Even if every employee worked in their own coworking space, the advantage is that they can choose one within walking distance of their front door. No-one needs to cause carnage to their family life if they are forced to change jobs multiple times. The idea that to find a job, you have to relocate and separate your children from their friends, clubs and schooling is quite horrifying really.
akadien 10y ago
I've been a remote worker for over four years, and my experience is this statement is partially true. With a laptop and wifi connection, I can work from any location where I am most productive. Spending every day in the same spare bedroom kills creativity, and a laptop can go anywhere that spurs it. It saves money if you cast off things you don't need, such as an extra car (my wife and I now car share), business casual clothing, eating out, &c, and if you live somewhere cheap. I live somewhere cheap (Louisiana), so I have a house with a couple of spare bedrooms from which to work.
rebekah-aimee 10y ago
But then all your programmers have private offices, which has been thoroughly established as dramatically important to productivity, as well as a bargaining chip in recruiting the best people. http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/FieldGuidetoDevelopers.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/FieldGuidetoDeveloper... (Kind of old, but still applicable.) Supplying an allowance to rent somewhere with a good workspace or set up an office is still mostly cheaper than renting an inner-city space with private offices... and then you don't have issues with VCs thinking you're burning their money unnecessarily.
- gohrt 10y ago
  Does Microsoft have the best people? Or does massive pay and moonshot projects outweigh a private office for most of the best?
  - slededit 10y ago
    That really depends on the time period and specific team within Microsoft. Working on Excel in the mid-90s (where Joel worked as a PM) is a significantly different experience than being on the windows installer team today.

was_boring 10y ago

Always on webrtc, screen sharing and realtime document collaboration. There are remote controlled robots with iPad faces, but I think those are more of a gimmick. So really just evolutionary, nothing revolutionary.

mgkimsal 10y ago

Optionally, consider actual co-located teams in cheaper areas. I fully support expanded virtual teams, but there are some benefits to co-location as well, and investing in long-term co-location areas, even in other parts of the US, would be a step towards getting the benefits of both co-location and lower costs. You might even be expanding the labor pool to include some culture that isn't an SV echo chamber (potentially cheap-shot, I know).

morgante 10y ago
The problem with co-locating teams in cheaper areas is that it drastically reduces your supply of labor. A lot of developers already live in the Bay Area and even more are willing to move there. Relatively few live in Dayton, Ohio (random example) and even fewer are willing to live there. The advantage of remote working is you can draw from talent all over the world (or at least all over the US) without having to worry about the fact that a lot of people would be unwilling to live in your particular LCOL area.
- vonmoltke 10y ago
  > The problem with co-locating teams in cheaper areas is that it drastically reduces your supply of labor. A lot of developers already live in the Bay Area and even more are willing to move there. You say this, but others say there is a chronic shortage of talent in the area. Having the largest concentration of X does no good if local demand is X+Y. I personally will not go near the Bay Area for less than $200k base. Considering the Bay Area exodus story posted yesterday, it sounds like there are thousands of people with similar opinions. > Relatively few live in Dayton, Ohio (random example) and even fewer are willing to live there. Fortunately Dayton is one of hundreds of decent-sized metro areas that are not the Bay Area. Every one has negatives and every one has people not willing to move there. So does the Bay Area. > The advantage of remote working is you can draw from talent all over the world (or at least all over the US) without having to worry about the fact that a lot of people would be unwilling to live in your particular LCOL area. I think the idea is to do clusters. Do light offices in any metro area where you hire more than one person. It provides the flexibility of a distributed team with the benefits of having some people colocated.

jondubois 10y ago

That's pretty much what Gigster (https://gigster.com/ https://gigster.com/) (YC) is about. Developers on Gigster are often able to work fewer hours and yet are more productive - As a developer, you can work from anywhere. It gives you the freedom to live outside of major urban centers where rent is cheaper.

kdamken 10y ago

This 1000x. Having an office space might make you feel like a "real company", but then again so will turning a profit. Having your own custom office space can be very expensive, especially if it's tricked out with all the stereotypical Silicon Valley amenities. The funny part is, most people don't care about those and would prefer to work remotely. So, you're paying more money to make things worse for employees. Additionally, if you're all in the relative area of a city and really need to meet there are often coworking spaces you can use.

mason55 10y ago
> most people ... would prefer to work remotely. I'm really curious about this. I did full remote for about 3 months and I thought I was going to go crazy.
- ryanx435 10y ago
  I agree. I work from home, but also rent an office downtown because the value of actually getting dressed, leaving my house, and interacting with people is worth more than the monthly rent.
  - Smeevy 10y ago
    Pretty much the same here. I ditched my 45-minute commute and rented 1-person office about .5 miles from my house about a year ago. I can choose to have lunch with my wife and I got back 90 minutes of my life every day. I find that I'm more productive and focused when I'm "at work." I have to overcome so many distractions at home that it feels like "trying to work." Big difference.
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  I've been doing full remote for two years and I'd never go back to an office.
- fzzzy 10y ago
  I worked in an office for a few years and I thought I was going to go crazy.