4 ms·

I think that is the point, there will be too many people "that can't work" due to tech innovations. It all makes sense if you think about welfare not as "these

by yks 10y ago

I think that is the point, there will be too many people "that can't work" due to tech innovations. It all makes sense if you think about welfare not as "these slouches are rewarded for the laziness" but as a price you pay so that unemployed people are not forced into violent property expropriation from you. When large swaths of population don't have an access to money-making jobs, it significantly affects middle class well-being. Of course you can "get yours" and double down on police and live behind electric fences South Africa style, but that's not pretty.

UVB-76 10y ago
The "get yours" mentality is flawed because all you end up doing is imprisoning large sections of the population for poverty-driven crime, and you end up paying for their imprisonment. What do prisoners get while in prison? Basic necessities, like food, shelter, warmth. A kind of basic income, if you will.
- Chronic51 10y ago
  Basic income except the rich and powerful cannot stop outside their home?
_Understated_ 10y ago
I don't think anyone wants a Sci-Fi dystopia: It doesn't benefit anyone. Government should provide every citizen with basics should they falter: Food, clothing, shelter, education etc. I absolutely believe that is a basic human right. What I don't want is to fund anything other than a safety net: Welfare should be a helping hand to get you back on your feet or to give you a start - Nothing more. It should also come with an expiry date!
- pjc50 10y ago
  > Government should provide every citizen with basics should they falter: Food, clothing, shelter, education etc. I absolutely believe that is a basic human right. > What I don't want is to fund anything other than a safety net: Welfare should be a helping hand to get you back on your feet or to give you a start - Nothing more. It should also come with an expiry date! These two statements completely contradict one another. There are plenty of people who aren't going back on their feed any time soon due to disability or mental health issues.
  - _Understated_ 10y ago
    You are right, they are contradictory - I was typing faster than I was thinking. I believe in a kind of 2 tier system but I didn't get that across. e.g. You lose you job and the welfare system keeps you going at your current burn rate (you will likely have to make some adjustments but you won't lose your house!) until you can get back on your feet. Let's say 12 months (pulled that figure out the air!) After that, the basic welfare system comes into play where you will be given food, shelter, clothing, education etc. That's the basic human right part I meant. I am glossing over the details but at a high level you are kept afloat at your current level for a period, then you are given the basics for as long as you need them. As for disability, that would be kind of basics+ (Not trying to make light of it but it's easiest to put it that way). I believe that it's every citizens duty to take care of people that just can't help themselves through disability. Their case be slightly different e.g. a house may need modifications, special transport etc. Does that make sense?
    - pjc50 10y ago
      That seems quite a lot like the current UK system, although with more generous insurance after loss of employment and simpler claiming in the basic system, rather than negotiating the benefits maze. (It's more complicated once you consider immigration and asylum, but hardly anyone not subject to that system understands it)

by yks 10y ago

UVB-76 10y ago

The "get yours" mentality is flawed because all you end up doing is imprisoning large sections of the population for poverty-driven crime, and you end up paying for their imprisonment. What do prisoners get while in prison? Basic necessities, like food, shelter, warmth. A kind of basic income, if you will.

Chronic51 10y ago
Basic income except the rich and powerful cannot stop outside their home?

_Understated_ 10y ago

I don't think anyone wants a Sci-Fi dystopia: It doesn't benefit anyone. Government should provide every citizen with basics should they falter: Food, clothing, shelter, education etc. I absolutely believe that is a basic human right. What I don't want is to fund anything other than a safety net: Welfare should be a helping hand to get you back on your feet or to give you a start - Nothing more. It should also come with an expiry date!

pjc50 10y ago
> Government should provide every citizen with basics should they falter: Food, clothing, shelter, education etc. I absolutely believe that is a basic human right. > What I don't want is to fund anything other than a safety net: Welfare should be a helping hand to get you back on your feet or to give you a start - Nothing more. It should also come with an expiry date! These two statements completely contradict one another. There are plenty of people who aren't going back on their feed any time soon due to disability or mental health issues.
- _Understated_ 10y ago
  You are right, they are contradictory - I was typing faster than I was thinking. I believe in a kind of 2 tier system but I didn't get that across. e.g. You lose you job and the welfare system keeps you going at your current burn rate (you will likely have to make some adjustments but you won't lose your house!) until you can get back on your feet. Let's say 12 months (pulled that figure out the air!) After that, the basic welfare system comes into play where you will be given food, shelter, clothing, education etc. That's the basic human right part I meant. I am glossing over the details but at a high level you are kept afloat at your current level for a period, then you are given the basics for as long as you need them. As for disability, that would be kind of basics+ (Not trying to make light of it but it's easiest to put it that way). I believe that it's every citizens duty to take care of people that just can't help themselves through disability. Their case be slightly different e.g. a house may need modifications, special transport etc. Does that make sense?
  - pjc50 10y ago
    That seems quite a lot like the current UK system, although with more generous insurance after loss of employment and simpler claiming in the basic system, rather than negotiating the benefits maze. (It's more complicated once you consider immigration and asylum, but hardly anyone not subject to that system understands it)