5 ms·

Man, when do we stop this European thing? Have you tried to compare a kid in Naples with a kid in, say, Denmark? Come on, the kid in Naples will be a 24/7 hurdl

by kfk 10y ago

Man, when do we stop this European thing? Have you tried to compare a kid in Naples with a kid in, say, Denmark? Come on, the kid in Naples will be a 24/7 hurdle, shouting in the street from when the sun rises. I even have a hard time talking about Italians since kids from North and South are very different.

pif 10y ago
Came here to reply the exact thing. I said already once on HN and I'll repeat it: Europe is not a nation, and especially it is not _a_ culture!
- askafriend 10y ago
  Neither is India....or even the United States for that matter. Also, while we're at it, can we also stop using "Cancer" as if it were a single disease that we can "cure"? "Cancer" is an umbrella term for a wide range of diseases that can affect vastly different parts of the body in different ways. It's not all the same thing.
  - erelde 10y ago
    The United States are very homogenous in comparison to Europe. The US have a strong race issue between "blacks" "whites" "asians" etc. Europe has a discrimination issue between what the US calls "whites". For example in France, Polish people are supposedly all plumbers and Portugese are masons. In the US there are only two languages, English and Spanish. In Europe there's too many to count with the modern revival of local dialects.
    - dalke 10y ago
      This is rather like arguing if Christianity is a homogeneous or diverse religion. The answer is "yes". In the US, views on race are very different in Alaska or Hawaii than in Alabama or Puerto Rico. The US also has discrimination issues between different whites. For example, in the US you can be "White non-Hispanic" vs. "White Hispanic". While less common than in my youth, the US also has slurs and stereotypes about US-born whites based on their family's historical culture. This lead to expressions like "dumb Swede", the stereotype of the Irish cop on the beat, and many ethnic slurs, including those concerning white Jews. "Only two languages"? What do you even mean by that? San Francisco has Chinese language TV broadcasts, and of course Chinatown. There are 40,000+ Hmong in the Minneapolis–Saint Paul area. A radio station I used to listen to had shows in Navajo. Hawaiian is an official language in Hawaii. Quoting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_United_States : > Tagalog and Vietnamese have over one million speakers each in the United States, almost entirely within recent immigrant populations. Both languages, along with the varieties of Chinese (mostly Cantonese, Taishanese, and Standard Mandarin), Japanese, and Korean, are now used in elections in Alaska, California, Hawaii, Illinois, New York, Texas, and Washington. ... The state government of Louisiana offers services and documents in French,
      - DanBC 10y ago
        Obviously very many languages are spoken in the US. How many are used in the bureaucracy? What languages are the laws written in? Because in Europe[1] there are 24 official languages and these are used to create the bureaucracy. EDIT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_United_States > English 80%, Spanish 12.4%, other Indo-European 3.7%, Asian and Pacific island languages 3%, other languages 0.9% (2009 survey by the Census Bureau) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_European_Unio... > The five most spoken languages in the EU are English (51%), German (32%), French (26%), Italian (16%) and Spanish (15%). At 18% of the total number of speakers, German is the most widely spoken native language, followed by Italian, English, French and Spanish.
        dalke 10y ago
        Your comments are so noted. However, I objected to the phrase "In the US there are only two languages, English and Spanish. In Europe there's too many to count with the modern revival of local dialects." The US has more than two languages, even in official government use. (You linked to the same source as I did, which points out both Hawaiian and French use.) If we use the same metric, which points out the "modern revival of local dialects", then we must also accept the modern revival in the US of indigenous languages, and their use in tribal governments.
  - kfk 10y ago
    United States has 1 common language, you realize sometimes we move 200km here and we don't understand each other? But I agree, in broad terms we are more similar than not (we all agree on the same things on human rights, individualism, separation of State vs Religion. Check: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofstede's_cultural_dimensions_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofstede's_cultural_dimensions...). It's just that in less broad terms - say quite kids - we are very, very, different. It's a matter of understanding which layer of culture you are referring to and avoid broad simplifications.
    - stevekemp 10y ago
      Move to the UK. Accents and dialect differ sharply in as short a distance as 5km.
      - majewsky 10y ago
        That's the same in some parts of Germany, but there's a huge difference between a different dialect or accent and literally speaking a completely different language.
- atemerev 10y ago
  It is a culture. Yes, in Copenhagen and in Naples, things are quite different, but there is also a common ground. Compared to Americans, e.g. most Europeans don't like to go all in with some idea or project — the want some plan B. And nobody fears nudity (there are some grades, from being all ok with it [Germany] or still having some reservations [France], but still). I lived in Russia, Switzerland, Italy, Denmark, Spain and the US. And I see more things in common between Russians and Americans then between Americans and the rest of Europeans. Both Russians and Americans like megaprojects, enjoy standing on moral high ground, like all-ins and risky endeavors, and long for foreign culture without really immersing in it. In Europe, none of these things are common.
  - dTal 10y ago
    >Both Russians and Americans like megaprojects, enjoy standing on moral high ground, like all-ins and risky endeavors, and long for foreign culture without really immersing in it. Someone who has lived there will doubtless correct me, but I get the strong impression that China is similar. Must be a superpower thing.
Annatar 10y ago
...And the standard of living, as well as discipline of Danes and lack of discipline of Italians reflects their respective mentalities. Denmark is an ordered state where everything functions, while Italy is struggling in every sense across the spectrum. Coincidence? Should we have a discourse about corruption in Italy? We could lie to ourselves and say it isn't so, but deep down we know it to be true. As my secundo Italian friend and colleague so aptly put it: "we are the smartest and the dumbest people at the same time." And Danes? So sorry, but we cannot discuss it: they are busy inventing the future, and pursuing sports, arts, and other endeavours of intellectual value, all the while being one of the countries with the lowest level of corruption on the planet. The kid from Naples is yelling? You bet your patootie she or he is, and the root cause is a mentality which regards a largely different set of values as important. The results reflected in Italy as a country speak for themselves; meanwhile in Denmark, the quiet efficiency continues.
- kfk 10y ago
  And being slightly xenophobes... sorry, I had to say that, I did not feel very welcomed in Denmark, maybe it was the city or the ghetto I was living in (I did like the ghetto a lot though). Italy is a bit more welcoming, Germany is very welcoming (for Italians at least).
  - Annatar 10y ago
    You bet! You won't make any friends in Western Europe in general overnight, the ones you do make will be few and far between, but damn it all, you will have made deep friends for life. So yes, xenophobia until you have proven yourself otherwise. Or maybe not xenophobia, but personal space, peace and quiet is valued at a premium. You'll be treated politely but with a distance, until it is determined whether you are compatible or not; otherwise, the politeness protocol has been satisfied, and now goodbye: I introduced myself, you introduced yourself; this is a very good conversation! Goodbye!
  - atemerev 10y ago
    Denmark is arguably the least welcoming European country, and the most depressing. Not saying it is necessarily a bad thing.
mcjiggerlog 10y ago
I came to say the same - this is more of a Germanic thing thing that a pan-European thing. I'm living in Spain and the kids here are anything but quiet (compared with the UK).

by kfk 10y ago

pif 10y ago

Came here to reply the exact thing. I said already once on HN and I'll repeat it: Europe is not a nation, and especially it is not _a_ culture!

askafriend 10y ago
Neither is India....or even the United States for that matter. Also, while we're at it, can we also stop using "Cancer" as if it were a single disease that we can "cure"? "Cancer" is an umbrella term for a wide range of diseases that can affect vastly different parts of the body in different ways. It's not all the same thing.
- erelde 10y ago
  The United States are very homogenous in comparison to Europe. The US have a strong race issue between "blacks" "whites" "asians" etc. Europe has a discrimination issue between what the US calls "whites". For example in France, Polish people are supposedly all plumbers and Portugese are masons. In the US there are only two languages, English and Spanish. In Europe there's too many to count with the modern revival of local dialects.
  - dalke 10y ago
    This is rather like arguing if Christianity is a homogeneous or diverse religion. The answer is "yes". In the US, views on race are very different in Alaska or Hawaii than in Alabama or Puerto Rico. The US also has discrimination issues between different whites. For example, in the US you can be "White non-Hispanic" vs. "White Hispanic". While less common than in my youth, the US also has slurs and stereotypes about US-born whites based on their family's historical culture. This lead to expressions like "dumb Swede", the stereotype of the Irish cop on the beat, and many ethnic slurs, including those concerning white Jews. "Only two languages"? What do you even mean by that? San Francisco has Chinese language TV broadcasts, and of course Chinatown. There are 40,000+ Hmong in the Minneapolis–Saint Paul area. A radio station I used to listen to had shows in Navajo. Hawaiian is an official language in Hawaii. Quoting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_United_States : > Tagalog and Vietnamese have over one million speakers each in the United States, almost entirely within recent immigrant populations. Both languages, along with the varieties of Chinese (mostly Cantonese, Taishanese, and Standard Mandarin), Japanese, and Korean, are now used in elections in Alaska, California, Hawaii, Illinois, New York, Texas, and Washington. ... The state government of Louisiana offers services and documents in French,
    - DanBC 10y ago
      Obviously very many languages are spoken in the US. How many are used in the bureaucracy? What languages are the laws written in? Because in Europe[1] there are 24 official languages and these are used to create the bureaucracy. EDIT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_United_States > English 80%, Spanish 12.4%, other Indo-European 3.7%, Asian and Pacific island languages 3%, other languages 0.9% (2009 survey by the Census Bureau) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_European_Unio... > The five most spoken languages in the EU are English (51%), German (32%), French (26%), Italian (16%) and Spanish (15%). At 18% of the total number of speakers, German is the most widely spoken native language, followed by Italian, English, French and Spanish.
      - dalke 10y ago
        Your comments are so noted. However, I objected to the phrase "In the US there are only two languages, English and Spanish. In Europe there's too many to count with the modern revival of local dialects." The US has more than two languages, even in official government use. (You linked to the same source as I did, which points out both Hawaiian and French use.) If we use the same metric, which points out the "modern revival of local dialects", then we must also accept the modern revival in the US of indigenous languages, and their use in tribal governments.
- kfk 10y ago
  United States has 1 common language, you realize sometimes we move 200km here and we don't understand each other? But I agree, in broad terms we are more similar than not (we all agree on the same things on human rights, individualism, separation of State vs Religion. Check: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofstede's_cultural_dimensions_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofstede's_cultural_dimensions...). It's just that in less broad terms - say quite kids - we are very, very, different. It's a matter of understanding which layer of culture you are referring to and avoid broad simplifications.
  - stevekemp 10y ago
    Move to the UK. Accents and dialect differ sharply in as short a distance as 5km.
    - majewsky 10y ago
      That's the same in some parts of Germany, but there's a huge difference between a different dialect or accent and literally speaking a completely different language.
atemerev 10y ago
It is a culture. Yes, in Copenhagen and in Naples, things are quite different, but there is also a common ground. Compared to Americans, e.g. most Europeans don't like to go all in with some idea or project — the want some plan B. And nobody fears nudity (there are some grades, from being all ok with it [Germany] or still having some reservations [France], but still). I lived in Russia, Switzerland, Italy, Denmark, Spain and the US. And I see more things in common between Russians and Americans then between Americans and the rest of Europeans. Both Russians and Americans like megaprojects, enjoy standing on moral high ground, like all-ins and risky endeavors, and long for foreign culture without really immersing in it. In Europe, none of these things are common.
- dTal 10y ago
  >Both Russians and Americans like megaprojects, enjoy standing on moral high ground, like all-ins and risky endeavors, and long for foreign culture without really immersing in it. Someone who has lived there will doubtless correct me, but I get the strong impression that China is similar. Must be a superpower thing.

Annatar 10y ago

...And the standard of living, as well as discipline of Danes and lack of discipline of Italians reflects their respective mentalities. Denmark is an ordered state where everything functions, while Italy is struggling in every sense across the spectrum. Coincidence? Should we have a discourse about corruption in Italy? We could lie to ourselves and say it isn't so, but deep down we know it to be true. As my secundo Italian friend and colleague so aptly put it: "we are the smartest and the dumbest people at the same time." And Danes? So sorry, but we cannot discuss it: they are busy inventing the future, and pursuing sports, arts, and other endeavours of intellectual value, all the while being one of the countries with the lowest level of corruption on the planet. The kid from Naples is yelling? You bet your patootie she or he is, and the root cause is a mentality which regards a largely different set of values as important. The results reflected in Italy as a country speak for themselves; meanwhile in Denmark, the quiet efficiency continues.

kfk 10y ago
And being slightly xenophobes... sorry, I had to say that, I did not feel very welcomed in Denmark, maybe it was the city or the ghetto I was living in (I did like the ghetto a lot though). Italy is a bit more welcoming, Germany is very welcoming (for Italians at least).
- Annatar 10y ago
  You bet! You won't make any friends in Western Europe in general overnight, the ones you do make will be few and far between, but damn it all, you will have made deep friends for life. So yes, xenophobia until you have proven yourself otherwise. Or maybe not xenophobia, but personal space, peace and quiet is valued at a premium. You'll be treated politely but with a distance, until it is determined whether you are compatible or not; otherwise, the politeness protocol has been satisfied, and now goodbye: I introduced myself, you introduced yourself; this is a very good conversation! Goodbye!
- atemerev 10y ago
  Denmark is arguably the least welcoming European country, and the most depressing. Not saying it is necessarily a bad thing.

mcjiggerlog 10y ago

I came to say the same - this is more of a Germanic thing thing that a pan-European thing. I'm living in Spain and the kids here are anything but quiet (compared with the UK).