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>>No country actually has the appetite for the amount of warrant-less killing that Imperialism creates The US drone war has been killing hundreds and thousands

>>No country actually has the appetite for the amount of warrant-less killing that Imperialism creates The US drone war has been killing hundreds and thousands of innocent people so I wonder if perhaps we do have an appetite for that sort of murder.

dragontamer 10y ago
Right. You just keep ignoring the good parts of history. You do realize that America opened up Concentration Camps inside of the Philippine-American War? Americans retaliated against the Philippinos by creating such lovely orders like "Kill everyone over the age of 10". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_H._Smith#Samar_campaign https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_H._Smith#Samar_campaign > "I want no prisoners. I wish you to kill and burn, the more you kill and burn the better it will please me. I want all persons killed who are capable of bearing arms in actual hostilities against the United States," General Jacob H. Smith said. America, F-yeah! And of course, the definition of "capable of bearing arms" is: > "Persons of ten years and older are those designated as being capable of bearing arms" ------ But yeah, continue to pretend that modern war is worse than the past or something. Hundreds or thousands of innocent civilians? F-ing hell, we did 25,000 to 50,000 for s--- and giggles back then. In a single campaign, by a single general who was never punished.
- wavefunction 10y ago
  I am responding to a post that claims that countries no longer engage in the sorts of atrocities found in history to claim that things are not that different. I think we actually spend more effort these days "justifying" the carnage whereas in the past it passed with less comment. You seem to be tilting at windmills that you erected yourself.
  - dragontamer 10y ago
    Scorched Earth was a STRATEGY of war in the late 1800s / early 1900s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorched_earth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorched_earth Back then, the US was blowing up hospitals as an EXPLICIT strategy to gain an edge over our foes. (Much like how Russia / Assad seem to be doing in Syria right now). In contrast, when the US accidentally blows up a hospital today, a massive investigation goes through and everyone basically apologizes for it. You seriously can't compare the 1800s / early 1900s mentality with the mentality of war we have today. This S--- doesn't happen anymore, not by American commanders anyway: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Walk_of_the_Navajo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Walk_of_the_Navajo ------------- Strictly by the numbers, the Drone Strikes that the US uses are far more precise at targeting than previous "Scorched Earth" campaigns that the Imperialist US used to take. Comparing the lol Drone Strikes to Imperialist US is... utterly ridiculous from a historical perspective. The heartlessness and cruelty from that era still haunts us today. No. We have no appetite for the warmongering that Imperialism used to call for. For every example you bring up today, I'll show you a historical example that is strictly worse.
- PavlovsCat 10y ago
  The baseline isn't even worse stuff, the baseline is decency.
  - dragontamer 10y ago
    I tend to be a bit more pragmatic. The human race is composed of neither angels nor devils: but humans. Beings with flawed and incomplete morality. Its best if we judge ourselves by comparing against the actions of our fathers, otherwise we may lose ourselves in idealism. The claim after all, is that the current time is the most prosperous and peaceful time of all of human existence. And as far as I can tell, actual history agrees with this fact. Don't believe me? Go back to the root comment if you've forgotten the claim: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11610816 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11610816 You may be worried about a few thousand innocent deaths here and there, but again, that number is much much MUCH much smaller than the historical norm. But in any case, your idealism is a good thing. It is only further proof that we as a race are beginning to forget the horrors of war, because peace has existed for so long. (Of course, some humans still exist in war-torn areas. Syrian and Iraqi refugees. And I am peace-loving and idealistic enough that I believe we should open up our country to these people, despite the risks. )
    - PavlovsCat 10y ago
      > Its best if we judge ourselves by comparing against the actions of our fathers, otherwise we may lose ourselves in idealism. Honesty and decency existed thousands of years ago, too, "our fathers" aren't a monolith, just like the present isn't. But more importantly, I say including 10 different versions of jQuery on one page to color 10 letters makes it load needlessly slow, and you say that's still faster than usenet in the 80s -- if you know what I mean? It is both technically true and completely besides the point. > The claim after all, is that the current time is the most prosperous and peaceful time of all of human existence. Nope. The claim was that this is because of countries wanting to dominate each other. I say it's despite of that. > You may be worried about a few thousand innocent deaths here and there, but again, that number is much much MUCH much smaller than the historical norm. It's also a rather simplicistic metric. We consider murder bad because it doesn't allow the murdered people to live their lives, right? To develop freely as a person, and whatnot? Well, there's a problem: > "it's not possible to be fully human if you are being surveilled 24/7" [ http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20130818120421175 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20130818120421175 ] The same goes for other things. People are getting fucked in so many ways with it's not really the opposite of murder, but its sibling. And open murder evokes criticism and resistance, while "pumping every home full of sleeping gas" (to paraphrase the lyrics to Bullet In The Head by RATM) works much better. > I am peace-loving and idealistic enough that I believe we should open up our country to these people, despite the risks. Call me when you're willing to get war criminals arrested and tried, and I mean American/Western ones. And let's talk about how peaceful the world has become after the wars/genocides over oil and water are over. You know, the ones we do nothing serious to avoid steering into, because we're too busy dominating each other, building little fortresses and kicking away the ladder? The gap between rich and poor is growing, not shrinking. You can't say by the standards of 1900, people today are better off. Well you can, but I can't take it seriously. By the standards of 2016 -- the ones that matter -- many people are worse off. As Stephen Hawking wrote: > If machines produce everything we need, the outcome will depend on how things are distributed. Everyone can enjoy a life of luxurious leisure if the machine-produced wealth is shared, or most people can end up miserably poor if the machine-owners successfully lobby against wealth redistribution. So far, the trend seems to be toward the second option, with technology driving ever-increasing inequality. ( https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/3nyn5i/science_ama_series_stephen_hawking_ama_answers/cvsdmkv https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/3nyn5i/science_ama... )

dragontamer 10y ago

Right. You just keep ignoring the good parts of history. You do realize that America opened up Concentration Camps inside of the Philippine-American War? Americans retaliated against the Philippinos by creating such lovely orders like "Kill everyone over the age of 10". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_H._Smith#Samar_campaign https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_H._Smith#Samar_campaign > "I want no prisoners. I wish you to kill and burn, the more you kill and burn the better it will please me. I want all persons killed who are capable of bearing arms in actual hostilities against the United States," General Jacob H. Smith said. America, F-yeah! And of course, the definition of "capable of bearing arms" is: > "Persons of ten years and older are those designated as being capable of bearing arms" ------ But yeah, continue to pretend that modern war is worse than the past or something. Hundreds or thousands of innocent civilians? F-ing hell, we did 25,000 to 50,000 for s--- and giggles back then. In a single campaign, by a single general who was never punished.

wavefunction 10y ago
I am responding to a post that claims that countries no longer engage in the sorts of atrocities found in history to claim that things are not that different. I think we actually spend more effort these days "justifying" the carnage whereas in the past it passed with less comment. You seem to be tilting at windmills that you erected yourself.
- dragontamer 10y ago
  Scorched Earth was a STRATEGY of war in the late 1800s / early 1900s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorched_earth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorched_earth Back then, the US was blowing up hospitals as an EXPLICIT strategy to gain an edge over our foes. (Much like how Russia / Assad seem to be doing in Syria right now). In contrast, when the US accidentally blows up a hospital today, a massive investigation goes through and everyone basically apologizes for it. You seriously can't compare the 1800s / early 1900s mentality with the mentality of war we have today. This S--- doesn't happen anymore, not by American commanders anyway: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Walk_of_the_Navajo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Walk_of_the_Navajo ------------- Strictly by the numbers, the Drone Strikes that the US uses are far more precise at targeting than previous "Scorched Earth" campaigns that the Imperialist US used to take. Comparing the lol Drone Strikes to Imperialist US is... utterly ridiculous from a historical perspective. The heartlessness and cruelty from that era still haunts us today. No. We have no appetite for the warmongering that Imperialism used to call for. For every example you bring up today, I'll show you a historical example that is strictly worse.
PavlovsCat 10y ago
The baseline isn't even worse stuff, the baseline is decency.
- dragontamer 10y ago
  I tend to be a bit more pragmatic. The human race is composed of neither angels nor devils: but humans. Beings with flawed and incomplete morality. Its best if we judge ourselves by comparing against the actions of our fathers, otherwise we may lose ourselves in idealism. The claim after all, is that the current time is the most prosperous and peaceful time of all of human existence. And as far as I can tell, actual history agrees with this fact. Don't believe me? Go back to the root comment if you've forgotten the claim: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11610816 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11610816 You may be worried about a few thousand innocent deaths here and there, but again, that number is much much MUCH much smaller than the historical norm. But in any case, your idealism is a good thing. It is only further proof that we as a race are beginning to forget the horrors of war, because peace has existed for so long. (Of course, some humans still exist in war-torn areas. Syrian and Iraqi refugees. And I am peace-loving and idealistic enough that I believe we should open up our country to these people, despite the risks. )
  - PavlovsCat 10y ago
    > Its best if we judge ourselves by comparing against the actions of our fathers, otherwise we may lose ourselves in idealism. Honesty and decency existed thousands of years ago, too, "our fathers" aren't a monolith, just like the present isn't. But more importantly, I say including 10 different versions of jQuery on one page to color 10 letters makes it load needlessly slow, and you say that's still faster than usenet in the 80s -- if you know what I mean? It is both technically true and completely besides the point. > The claim after all, is that the current time is the most prosperous and peaceful time of all of human existence. Nope. The claim was that this is because of countries wanting to dominate each other. I say it's despite of that. > You may be worried about a few thousand innocent deaths here and there, but again, that number is much much MUCH much smaller than the historical norm. It's also a rather simplicistic metric. We consider murder bad because it doesn't allow the murdered people to live their lives, right? To develop freely as a person, and whatnot? Well, there's a problem: > "it's not possible to be fully human if you are being surveilled 24/7" [ http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20130818120421175 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20130818120421175 ] The same goes for other things. People are getting fucked in so many ways with it's not really the opposite of murder, but its sibling. And open murder evokes criticism and resistance, while "pumping every home full of sleeping gas" (to paraphrase the lyrics to Bullet In The Head by RATM) works much better. > I am peace-loving and idealistic enough that I believe we should open up our country to these people, despite the risks. Call me when you're willing to get war criminals arrested and tried, and I mean American/Western ones. And let's talk about how peaceful the world has become after the wars/genocides over oil and water are over. You know, the ones we do nothing serious to avoid steering into, because we're too busy dominating each other, building little fortresses and kicking away the ladder? The gap between rich and poor is growing, not shrinking. You can't say by the standards of 1900, people today are better off. Well you can, but I can't take it seriously. By the standards of 2016 -- the ones that matter -- many people are worse off. As Stephen Hawking wrote: > If machines produce everything we need, the outcome will depend on how things are distributed. Everyone can enjoy a life of luxurious leisure if the machine-produced wealth is shared, or most people can end up miserably poor if the machine-owners successfully lobby against wealth redistribution. So far, the trend seems to be toward the second option, with technology driving ever-increasing inequality. ( https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/3nyn5i/science_ama_series_stephen_hawking_ama_answers/cvsdmkv https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/3nyn5i/science_ama... )