8 ms·

If WhatsApp is unable to comply with Brazilian law, should it be allowed to operate in Brazil? I think this is a bad law by the way. Hopefully the clearly nega

by Fargren 10y ago

If WhatsApp is unable to comply with Brazilian law, should it be allowed to operate in Brazil? I think this is a bad law by the way. Hopefully the clearly negative impact it is having will lead to it's reform.

spullara 10y ago
It seems to me that they did comply with Brazilian law. They handed over all the conversations they had — zero. Is there a law that says they have to record all the conversations?
- kuschku 10y ago
  They didn’t – they didn’t hand over the IP addresses that were requested.
  - icebraining 10y ago
    Where did you read that?
    - lucb1e 10y ago
      I don't remember if those comments had sources, but I've seen that in various comments in this thread. There seems to be a lot of misinformation going around.
MoreTuple 10y ago
Do they operate in Brazil? They apparently have no offices there and are only available over the internet (as is true of all websites throughout most of the world.) How can anyone expect to hold what amounts to a random IP address on the internet responsible for anything?
- t3nary 10y ago
  Their apps are in the Brazilian app stores
  - speeder 10y ago
    My apps are in the Danish Google Play and Apple App Store... I never been there, I don't read or write danish, I never interacted with danish government, or met any danish person. If the dane government wanted something from me, and sent a letter to some random person, written in danish, even if it reaches me, I wouldn't understand it anyway. Thus, having app in some other country store doesn't prove much, except that you clicked "publish" somewhere on Google or Apple uploading interfaces.
    - kuschku 10y ago
      > except that you clicked "publish" somewhere on Google or Apple uploading interfaces. At which point you agree to adhere to their laws and regulations. A famous example of someone operating legally under local law, but who got prosecuted for having merely a website accessible in another country, was Kim Dotcom. That’s the current state of international law, either lobby to change it, or accept it, but don't ignore it.
      - gambiting 10y ago
        >>At which point you agree to adhere to their laws and regulations. Uhm nope. If my app(published on Apple Store/Google Play) violated a law in Saudi Arabia and they sent me a letter requesting me to appear and subject myself to 100 lashes for violating their law, I would very promptly disregard said letter, to put it politely.
        kuschku 10y ago
        Then don’t publish your app in those countries.
        gambiting 10y ago
- kartan 10y ago
  This argument looks like it can also be applied to even malware. If I put something illegal doesn't has the judges right to stop the distribution of that app in the country? Another question is if what Watsapp did should be illegal. But if the judges can't stop internet companies from doing something illegal who do you thing should do it?
  - necessity 10y ago
    No, he does not have that right. By that same logic brazilians shouldn't be allowed to visit websites from any other country where there's a discrepancy with brazilian law. With a government like ours next thing you know we have our own Great Firewall. This kind of thing can't even be enforced, being so easy to bypass.
    - gcb0 10y ago
      except you are wrong. e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_blocking_access_to_The_Pirate_Bay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_blocking_access_to_T... every country treats certain content as criminal as they wish. Where the servers are is just a minor detail.
      - necessity 10y ago
        No it's not a minor detail, because it's easy to bypass, specially if its a decentralized service. Nevertheless its an outrageous retrenchment of our freedom.
        tremon 10y ago
        No it's not a minor detail, because it's easy to bypass All laws are easy to bypass, what's your point? Ever tried to go 60 in a 30km/h zone? Lack of 100% enforcement does not make a law useless.
- gcb0 10y ago
  BS! they have bank accounts and deals with many tel co to operate as they do in each country they are. you do not get pre-installed on the three biggest mobile operators phones (99.9% of market) and get deals where data to your service do not count as part of the limited data-plan on two of them, by just "being an IP address on the web".
  - eeeeeeeeeeeee 10y ago
    Do you have a source for this? Why would bank accounts need to be situated in Brazil for these deals to happen? That doesn't make sense.
    - gcb0 10y ago
      you can pay whats app directly via the operator. e.g. http://www.tim.com.br/sp/para-voce/planos/pre-pago/turbo-whatsapp http://www.tim.com.br/sp/para-voce/planos/pre-pago/turbo-wha... you can't do that in brazil without having the papers to do business there. in fact, you can't even sell anything without the right documents. Just like everywhere else.
      - ithkuil 10y ago
        paying whatsapp? I don't know portuguese so I didn't actually read what the deal is. Is this a service where subscribers pay the carrier a fee for 30 days of unlimited data traffic to whatsapp servers (VoIP excluded) + 50M of data ? If yes, does that constitute a transaction the consumer makes directy to whatsapp via the operator? I understand that likely whatsapp and TIM (an Italian company btw) might have made some deal and exchanged some money for the use of whatsapp logo etc, but I guess that transaction could have been done anywhere.
        gcb0 10y ago
        tim is Spanish. the app has in app purchase. that page describes both what you described plus paying for in app purchases via operator
odbol 10y ago
Who cares what the law says? The laws should serve the citizens. And in this case, a huge majority of the citizens prefer to use WhatsApp.
- Fargren 10y ago
  The judge cares. Because the basic tenet of a Republic is the separation of powers, a Judge is not allowed to decide whether or not a law is fair or good for the people; that decision falls on the legislative branch.

by Fargren 10y ago

spullara 10y ago

It seems to me that they did comply with Brazilian law. They handed over all the conversations they had — zero. Is there a law that says they have to record all the conversations?

kuschku 10y ago
They didn’t – they didn’t hand over the IP addresses that were requested.
- icebraining 10y ago
  Where did you read that?
  - lucb1e 10y ago
    I don't remember if those comments had sources, but I've seen that in various comments in this thread. There seems to be a lot of misinformation going around.

MoreTuple 10y ago

Do they operate in Brazil? They apparently have no offices there and are only available over the internet (as is true of all websites throughout most of the world.) How can anyone expect to hold what amounts to a random IP address on the internet responsible for anything?

t3nary 10y ago
Their apps are in the Brazilian app stores
- speeder 10y ago
  My apps are in the Danish Google Play and Apple App Store... I never been there, I don't read or write danish, I never interacted with danish government, or met any danish person. If the dane government wanted something from me, and sent a letter to some random person, written in danish, even if it reaches me, I wouldn't understand it anyway. Thus, having app in some other country store doesn't prove much, except that you clicked "publish" somewhere on Google or Apple uploading interfaces.
  - kuschku 10y ago
    > except that you clicked "publish" somewhere on Google or Apple uploading interfaces. At which point you agree to adhere to their laws and regulations. A famous example of someone operating legally under local law, but who got prosecuted for having merely a website accessible in another country, was Kim Dotcom. That’s the current state of international law, either lobby to change it, or accept it, but don't ignore it.
    - gambiting 10y ago
      >>At which point you agree to adhere to their laws and regulations. Uhm nope. If my app(published on Apple Store/Google Play) violated a law in Saudi Arabia and they sent me a letter requesting me to appear and subject myself to 100 lashes for violating their law, I would very promptly disregard said letter, to put it politely.
      - kuschku 10y ago
        Then don’t publish your app in those countries.
        gambiting 10y ago
kartan 10y ago
This argument looks like it can also be applied to even malware. If I put something illegal doesn't has the judges right to stop the distribution of that app in the country? Another question is if what Watsapp did should be illegal. But if the judges can't stop internet companies from doing something illegal who do you thing should do it?
- necessity 10y ago
  No, he does not have that right. By that same logic brazilians shouldn't be allowed to visit websites from any other country where there's a discrepancy with brazilian law. With a government like ours next thing you know we have our own Great Firewall. This kind of thing can't even be enforced, being so easy to bypass.
  - gcb0 10y ago
    except you are wrong. e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_blocking_access_to_The_Pirate_Bay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_blocking_access_to_T... every country treats certain content as criminal as they wish. Where the servers are is just a minor detail.
    - necessity 10y ago
      No it's not a minor detail, because it's easy to bypass, specially if its a decentralized service. Nevertheless its an outrageous retrenchment of our freedom.
      - tremon 10y ago
        No it's not a minor detail, because it's easy to bypass All laws are easy to bypass, what's your point? Ever tried to go 60 in a 30km/h zone? Lack of 100% enforcement does not make a law useless.
gcb0 10y ago
BS! they have bank accounts and deals with many tel co to operate as they do in each country they are. you do not get pre-installed on the three biggest mobile operators phones (99.9% of market) and get deals where data to your service do not count as part of the limited data-plan on two of them, by just "being an IP address on the web".
- eeeeeeeeeeeee 10y ago
  Do you have a source for this? Why would bank accounts need to be situated in Brazil for these deals to happen? That doesn't make sense.
  - gcb0 10y ago
    you can pay whats app directly via the operator. e.g. http://www.tim.com.br/sp/para-voce/planos/pre-pago/turbo-whatsapp http://www.tim.com.br/sp/para-voce/planos/pre-pago/turbo-wha... you can't do that in brazil without having the papers to do business there. in fact, you can't even sell anything without the right documents. Just like everywhere else.
    - ithkuil 10y ago
      paying whatsapp? I don't know portuguese so I didn't actually read what the deal is. Is this a service where subscribers pay the carrier a fee for 30 days of unlimited data traffic to whatsapp servers (VoIP excluded) + 50M of data ? If yes, does that constitute a transaction the consumer makes directy to whatsapp via the operator? I understand that likely whatsapp and TIM (an Italian company btw) might have made some deal and exchanged some money for the use of whatsapp logo etc, but I guess that transaction could have been done anywhere.
      - gcb0 10y ago
        tim is Spanish. the app has in app purchase. that page describes both what you described plus paying for in app purchases via operator

odbol 10y ago

Who cares what the law says? The laws should serve the citizens. And in this case, a huge majority of the citizens prefer to use WhatsApp.

Fargren 10y ago
The judge cares. Because the basic tenet of a Republic is the separation of powers, a Judge is not allowed to decide whether or not a law is fair or good for the people; that decision falls on the legislative branch.