5 ms·

You are missing the most important part of the story. Facebook and Whatsapp are not ignoring the request. They have said that it is impossible for them to provi

by latj 10y ago

You are missing the most important part of the story. Facebook and Whatsapp are not ignoring the request. They have said that it is impossible for them to provide the information requested.

794CD01 10y ago
"It's impossible for me to follow the law" is not a valid defense.
ww520 10y ago
That's the problem with all these judicial orders. They think it's a flip of the switch to comply. Why don't the courts provide the money to build the services and infrastructure to comply with the order?
- CiPHPerCoder 10y ago
  That would require a backdoor that didn't exist at the time and that WhatsApp doesn't want to create.
  - TearsInTheRain 10y ago
    It would require more than a backdoor but dozens of data centers as well as the software and personnel to manage them all
- whatever_dude 10y ago
  Orders like these are normally written out by judges that are completely oblivious to how reality works. Adding to that the fact that people with power know they tend to get things their way in Brazil, and that the government is all-powerful, I'm quite sure this guy just assumed he could change the laws of the universe with a stroke of his pen.
  - boobsbr 10y ago
    > he could change the laws of the universe with a stroke of his pen that's how the legislative and judiciary branches think here in Brazil, write the problems away with a law. it called 'canetada'.
    - kerkeslager 10y ago
      > it called 'canetada'. It's wonderful to have a succinct word for a concept like that; I wish there were such a word in English. Do you have any background information about the origins and meaning of this word?
      - kawera 10y ago
        Caneta means pen in portuguese. Canetada, although not a dictionary word, means the act of swiftly using a pen to show "who is the boss" - signing an impromptu decree or order of questionable legitimacy for example.
      - whatever_dude 10y ago
        Portuguese, maybe especially Brazilian Portuguese, has a good number of made-up words that can be created by simply adding certain suffixes to common words. They might not be in the dictionary; that'd grow its number of words exponentially I assume. But they're widely used and understood. In this case, "-ada" is basically added to words when something is used indiscriminately, normally by hitting something or someone, or throwing it. Whacking someone with a wooden stick ("pau") is a "paulada". Kicking a ball ("bola") on someone is a "bolada". Poking someone with a pin ("alfinete") is a "alfinetada". Therefore, using a pen ("caneta") indiscriminately becomes a "canetada". The same word would be used if you threw the pen at someone's head, so there's that.
  - alchemism 10y ago
    Yes, judges are fond of doing that. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/apr/29/fbi-hacking-computers-warrants-supreme-court-congress https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/apr/29/fbi-hacki...
- Grollicus 10y ago
  In Germany you get recompensation for that. Also one might argue if they don't like the laws they shouldn't access the market.
  - serge2k 10y ago
    Nah, you just gotta DISRUPT the current laws.
  - habosa 10y ago
    Not that I am a big fan of this particular law/result, but I want to highlight the second half of your sentence: "if they don't like the laws they shouldn't access the market" That is something the HN crowd does not seem to understand/respect. Most of us enjoy the personal protection of the law yet we want to whip up a webapp and have no laws apply to us.
    - lerpa 10y ago
      Bad laws are bad laws, it's idiotic to support them.
      - habosa 10y ago
        If you think harder you will realize that is false. The rule of law itself has value, and we can only live in a lawful society if we respect all laws and change them via established processes. Otherwise someone may decide that your favorite law is "idiotic" and you will have no recourse.
        leonatan 10y ago
        Civil disobedience is a very "established process".
        rbanffy 10y ago
        Civil disobedience does not imply impunity. You disobey the law and you face the consequences. That's how civil disobedience works. If too many people disobey the law, it eventually gets noticed.
- odbol 10y ago
  To give them some message that was deleted years ago? What is Facebook supposed to do, build a time machine?
- ptaipale 10y ago
  And not just the money. They try to override the logic of the universe. A company cannot provide data that it does not have and has no way of acquiring.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
sangnoir 10y ago
> They have said that it is impossible for them to provide the information requested. They have said this to the press or to the court? Because it seems to me like Fb/Whatsapp have been pointedly ignoring the courts for months. The least they could do is fly down a lackey to Brazil and say it in person and/or alternatively hire a Brazilian law firm to represent them.
- philovivero 10y ago
  This is going to sound flippant, but think about it, it isn't. What lackey is going to want to fly to a hostile country where the government is battling your employer? I don't want to spend any time in a foreign prison. Who would?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- latj 10y ago
  They dont have to fly anyone down to brazil. They had someone there. He was arrested a few months go for not fulfilling the request. Its all in the article we are commenting on.
  - CydeWeys 10y ago
    Terrifyingly Brazil is probably on the no-go list for lots of Apple employees right now, like how the Middle East is in general for LGBT people.
    - rbanffy 10y ago
      Apple has offices and operates legally in Brazil and has done so for many decades. As far as I know, they aren't violating any local law.
      - CydeWeys 10y ago
        I meant to say Facebook. No idea how I confused the two.
frostymarvelous 10y ago
Well finally. Whether or not they have a presence, operate there, are required to comply or whatsoever is not an issue. They simply can't comply. If they could initially they can't anymore. End-to-end encryption made sure of that. Again, unless they're lying to us.
edcastro 10y ago
It doesn't matter what 'they said', if it was not 'said' in formal legal response. If you are subpoenaed, you don't go ahead and publish in your blog 'hey judge, I've done nothing', you hire a lawyer and do it via legal channels. Facebook/WhatsApp haven't done the legal work, thus, their answer amounts to nothing.

by latj 10y ago

You are missing the most important part of the story. Facebook and Whatsapp are not ignoring the request. They have said that it is impossible for them to provide the information requested.

794CD01 10y ago

"It's impossible for me to follow the law" is not a valid defense.

ww520 10y ago

That's the problem with all these judicial orders. They think it's a flip of the switch to comply. Why don't the courts provide the money to build the services and infrastructure to comply with the order?

CiPHPerCoder 10y ago
That would require a backdoor that didn't exist at the time and that WhatsApp doesn't want to create.
- TearsInTheRain 10y ago
  It would require more than a backdoor but dozens of data centers as well as the software and personnel to manage them all
whatever_dude 10y ago
Orders like these are normally written out by judges that are completely oblivious to how reality works. Adding to that the fact that people with power know they tend to get things their way in Brazil, and that the government is all-powerful, I'm quite sure this guy just assumed he could change the laws of the universe with a stroke of his pen.
- boobsbr 10y ago
  > he could change the laws of the universe with a stroke of his pen that's how the legislative and judiciary branches think here in Brazil, write the problems away with a law. it called 'canetada'.
  - kerkeslager 10y ago
    > it called 'canetada'. It's wonderful to have a succinct word for a concept like that; I wish there were such a word in English. Do you have any background information about the origins and meaning of this word?
    - kawera 10y ago
      Caneta means pen in portuguese. Canetada, although not a dictionary word, means the act of swiftly using a pen to show "who is the boss" - signing an impromptu decree or order of questionable legitimacy for example.
    - whatever_dude 10y ago
      Portuguese, maybe especially Brazilian Portuguese, has a good number of made-up words that can be created by simply adding certain suffixes to common words. They might not be in the dictionary; that'd grow its number of words exponentially I assume. But they're widely used and understood. In this case, "-ada" is basically added to words when something is used indiscriminately, normally by hitting something or someone, or throwing it. Whacking someone with a wooden stick ("pau") is a "paulada". Kicking a ball ("bola") on someone is a "bolada". Poking someone with a pin ("alfinete") is a "alfinetada". Therefore, using a pen ("caneta") indiscriminately becomes a "canetada". The same word would be used if you threw the pen at someone's head, so there's that.
- alchemism 10y ago
  Yes, judges are fond of doing that. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/apr/29/fbi-hacking-computers-warrants-supreme-court-congress https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/apr/29/fbi-hacki...
Grollicus 10y ago
In Germany you get recompensation for that. Also one might argue if they don't like the laws they shouldn't access the market.
- serge2k 10y ago
  Nah, you just gotta DISRUPT the current laws.
- habosa 10y ago
  Not that I am a big fan of this particular law/result, but I want to highlight the second half of your sentence: "if they don't like the laws they shouldn't access the market" That is something the HN crowd does not seem to understand/respect. Most of us enjoy the personal protection of the law yet we want to whip up a webapp and have no laws apply to us.
  - lerpa 10y ago
    Bad laws are bad laws, it's idiotic to support them.
    - habosa 10y ago
      If you think harder you will realize that is false. The rule of law itself has value, and we can only live in a lawful society if we respect all laws and change them via established processes. Otherwise someone may decide that your favorite law is "idiotic" and you will have no recourse.
      - leonatan 10y ago
        Civil disobedience is a very "established process".
        rbanffy 10y ago
        Civil disobedience does not imply impunity. You disobey the law and you face the consequences. That's how civil disobedience works. If too many people disobey the law, it eventually gets noticed.
odbol 10y ago
To give them some message that was deleted years ago? What is Facebook supposed to do, build a time machine?
ptaipale 10y ago
And not just the money. They try to override the logic of the universe. A company cannot provide data that it does not have and has no way of acquiring.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

sangnoir 10y ago

> They have said that it is impossible for them to provide the information requested. They have said this to the press or to the court? Because it seems to me like Fb/Whatsapp have been pointedly ignoring the courts for months. The least they could do is fly down a lackey to Brazil and say it in person and/or alternatively hire a Brazilian law firm to represent them.

philovivero 10y ago
This is going to sound flippant, but think about it, it isn't. What lackey is going to want to fly to a hostile country where the government is battling your employer? I don't want to spend any time in a foreign prison. Who would?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
latj 10y ago
They dont have to fly anyone down to brazil. They had someone there. He was arrested a few months go for not fulfilling the request. Its all in the article we are commenting on.
- CydeWeys 10y ago
  Terrifyingly Brazil is probably on the no-go list for lots of Apple employees right now, like how the Middle East is in general for LGBT people.
  - rbanffy 10y ago
    Apple has offices and operates legally in Brazil and has done so for many decades. As far as I know, they aren't violating any local law.
    - CydeWeys 10y ago
      I meant to say Facebook. No idea how I confused the two.

frostymarvelous 10y ago

Well finally. Whether or not they have a presence, operate there, are required to comply or whatsoever is not an issue. They simply can't comply. If they could initially they can't anymore. End-to-end encryption made sure of that. Again, unless they're lying to us.

edcastro 10y ago

It doesn't matter what 'they said', if it was not 'said' in formal legal response. If you are subpoenaed, you don't go ahead and publish in your blog 'hey judge, I've done nothing', you hire a lawyer and do it via legal channels. Facebook/WhatsApp haven't done the legal work, thus, their answer amounts to nothing.