6 ms·

TLDR: The delays are due to software problems and the plane wont be kinda ready until end of 2018. Software Development is going to be a competitive advantage

by ardit33 10y ago

TLDR: The delays are due to software problems and the plane wont be kinda ready until end of 2018. Software Development is going to be a competitive advantage in warfare as well. From what I have heard, DoD has some really interesting practices on building software (code review each line with physical printouts, etc), which in combination with scope creep might be the cause of this slowness.

puppetmaster3 10y ago
"Software Development is going to be a competitive advantage" Let me fix that: if done well.
a3n 10y ago
Those practices might be appropriate for a combat plane.
- SFJulie 10y ago
  So basically F35 is a plane embedded in a software. Why not have embedded computers in a decent plane? lol.
  - engi_nerd 10y ago
    Just about every complex engineering system is now a software project with an associated hardware component. You do not have a "decent plane" without good software.
  - dingaling 10y ago
    > Why not have embedded computers in a decent plane? Oddly enough, Fairchild Aircraft was formed when Mr Fairchild decided to build a 'decent plane' to carry-around his aerial cameras... Back to the F-35 it is interesting to contrast how Dassault in France has been slowly expanding the mission scope of its Rafale by adding additional software, without affecting the actual flight-control systems. After 12 years of gradual updates they're also starting to update hardware, such as converting to an SDR instead of traditional tuned radio.
    - emeraldd 10y ago
      > Oddly enough, Fairchild Aircraft was formed when Mr Fairchild decided to build a 'decent plane' to carry-around his aerial cameras... Ya know, I think he may have been onto something there ... > The A-10 was designed around the 30 mm GAU-8 Avenger rotary cannon that is its primary armament. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairchild_Republic_A-10_Thunderbolt_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairchild_Republic_A-10_Thunde...
wyldfire 10y ago
Fagan-style code review is likely a net productivity gain over no-reviews-at-all. Sure, scope creep is a killer, but I'd imagine it's a herculean task to create software for a new fighter. The expectation would likely be that software could control and/or monitor many features that would not have been software-controlled in previous generations. Safety requirements for flight (active life support) and armaments would be a huge burden.
- coredog64 10y ago
  IIRC, the F-22 has the equivalent of a Harris Night Hawk computer onboard. That was a big deal 20 years ago, but computationally outclassed by a $100 smartphone today. My memory, faulty as it may be, seems to recall a two page ad in AW&ST touting the Night Hawk "supercomputer" that would be in each F-22.
  - engi_nerd 10y ago
    This is normal in the defense industry. You must be very careful when you upgrade hardware, because it should be proven that the upgrade provides at least the capability of the previous system (regression testing) plus whatever new/improved functionality you plan. Changing hardware on the timescale of consumer electronics is simply not viable, or necessary. In other words, my response to your statement that the avionics of a fighter jet are "computationally outclassed by a $100 smartphone today" is, "So what?" You buy and test the hardware that you believe is necessary to accomplish the given mission, not the latest-and-greatest for the sake of being the latest-and-greatest.
    - rootbear 10y ago
      Similar arguments apply to spacecraft. The processors and other IT tech are usually far behind consumer gear. This is party due to the radiation hardening required, but also the lack of a real requirement for the latest-and-greatest.
      - dajohnson89 10y ago
coldcode 10y ago
I think a lot of the issue is not the software on the plane but the software that manages maintenance, logistics and support; without that working the plane is sitting on the tarmac not doing anything.
nxzero 10y ago
Just to be clear, "physical printouts" means their printing the code to paper? If so, why, and if not, what do you mean, and why is it done this way?

by ardit33 10y ago

puppetmaster3 10y ago

"Software Development is going to be a competitive advantage" Let me fix that: if done well.

a3n 10y ago

Those practices might be appropriate for a combat plane.

SFJulie 10y ago
So basically F35 is a plane embedded in a software. Why not have embedded computers in a decent plane? lol.
- engi_nerd 10y ago
  Just about every complex engineering system is now a software project with an associated hardware component. You do not have a "decent plane" without good software.
- dingaling 10y ago
  > Why not have embedded computers in a decent plane? Oddly enough, Fairchild Aircraft was formed when Mr Fairchild decided to build a 'decent plane' to carry-around his aerial cameras... Back to the F-35 it is interesting to contrast how Dassault in France has been slowly expanding the mission scope of its Rafale by adding additional software, without affecting the actual flight-control systems. After 12 years of gradual updates they're also starting to update hardware, such as converting to an SDR instead of traditional tuned radio.
  - emeraldd 10y ago
    > Oddly enough, Fairchild Aircraft was formed when Mr Fairchild decided to build a 'decent plane' to carry-around his aerial cameras... Ya know, I think he may have been onto something there ... > The A-10 was designed around the 30 mm GAU-8 Avenger rotary cannon that is its primary armament. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairchild_Republic_A-10_Thunderbolt_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairchild_Republic_A-10_Thunde...

wyldfire 10y ago

Fagan-style code review is likely a net productivity gain over no-reviews-at-all. Sure, scope creep is a killer, but I'd imagine it's a herculean task to create software for a new fighter. The expectation would likely be that software could control and/or monitor many features that would not have been software-controlled in previous generations. Safety requirements for flight (active life support) and armaments would be a huge burden.

coredog64 10y ago
IIRC, the F-22 has the equivalent of a Harris Night Hawk computer onboard. That was a big deal 20 years ago, but computationally outclassed by a $100 smartphone today. My memory, faulty as it may be, seems to recall a two page ad in AW&ST touting the Night Hawk "supercomputer" that would be in each F-22.
- engi_nerd 10y ago
  This is normal in the defense industry. You must be very careful when you upgrade hardware, because it should be proven that the upgrade provides at least the capability of the previous system (regression testing) plus whatever new/improved functionality you plan. Changing hardware on the timescale of consumer electronics is simply not viable, or necessary. In other words, my response to your statement that the avionics of a fighter jet are "computationally outclassed by a $100 smartphone today" is, "So what?" You buy and test the hardware that you believe is necessary to accomplish the given mission, not the latest-and-greatest for the sake of being the latest-and-greatest.
  - rootbear 10y ago
    Similar arguments apply to spacecraft. The processors and other IT tech are usually far behind consumer gear. This is party due to the radiation hardening required, but also the lack of a real requirement for the latest-and-greatest.
    - dajohnson89 10y ago

coldcode 10y ago

I think a lot of the issue is not the software on the plane but the software that manages maintenance, logistics and support; without that working the plane is sitting on the tarmac not doing anything.

nxzero 10y ago

Just to be clear, "physical printouts" means their printing the code to paper? If so, why, and if not, what do you mean, and why is it done this way?