5 ms·

Pay billions in your tax dollars to create a huge interference to free movement around the country, then pay hundreds more individually to get around some facet

by luma 11y ago

Pay billions in your tax dollars to create a huge interference to free movement around the country, then pay hundreds more individually to get around some facets of the interference you already paid for. Also, let's throw in submission of your fingerprints and a background check into a database secured by hugely-ineffectual government organization. I can't imagine why everyone isn't leaping at the opportunity...

sneak 11y ago
You can drop "around the country". Your nation or any other nation's national borders do not make free and unimpeded travel any less of a basic right for all people, in all places.
- pessimizer 11y ago
  Free and unimpeded travel is not a basic right for any people, in any place. It's supposed to be within the US, though, just like in Schengen. That's due to law, not some magical "right", though. edit: what is a "basic right" supposed to be, anyway? I missed that day in philosophy class.
  - malchow 11y ago
    It's not even due to law; it's due to the founding nature of the Republic. Arguably not even a constitutional amendment could permit restrictions on Americans' interstate travel.
    - gumby 11y ago
      > Arguably not even a constitutional amendment could permit restrictions on Americans' interstate travel. You might think it would be arguable but John Gilmore discovered you can't even argue it -- the law is secret and cannot be discussed in open court, thus he had no standing to sue over it: https://papersplease.org/gilmore/ https://papersplease.org/gilmore/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilmore_v._Gonzales https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilmore_v._Gonzales The wikipedia entry is slightly misleading on one point: the ninth circuit said he could travel without ID (this case came about because I had been flying without ID and discussed it with John) -- his suit was that he had no choice due to a law he was not permitted to read (yet ignorance of that law is no defense!) and he argued that that was a violation of free speech + free assembly. Without being able to discuss the law in open court, the justification for the decision was a fig leaf.
  - gumby 11y ago
    > what is a "basic right" supposed to be, anyway? I missed that day in philosophy class. Fundamental rights that are inherent to all humans by birth and cannot be justly alienated. It's a major philosophical topic you've probably seen reflected in the universal declaration of human rights, american declaration of independence, french revolutionary declaration of the rights of man etc . There's a terrible and anglocentric wikipedia page devoted to this topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_and_legal_rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_and_legal_rights
  - wallabout 11y ago
    a right against "unreasonable search and seizure" applies at all times, including travel. Is the search "reasonable"? I personally don't think so, given that it's more symbolism than substance. But there is a right to be "unimpeded" to some extent. To say otherwise is disingenuous.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
avn2109 11y ago
My dad grew up under the Soviets, where he learned a thing or two about waste, inefficiency, and systematic corruption. He says the following: "If the government ever gives you the chance to bribe them, do it immediately and with a smile. Pay double if they'll let you. You'll always come out ahead in the long run." Precheck/Global entry is clearly unrelated to actual security; instead, it's an obvious shakedown, plain and simple. The TSA has given you a chance to pay them extra to be harassed less. From this perspective the GP is correct in practice - you'd be dumb not to pay up.
- tyrust 11y ago
  >you'd be dumb not to pay up It's a difficult decision, one that I've been wrestling with for a while. Imagine if everyone (and I mean everyone) collectively said "This is bullshit." and refused to pay for PreCheck. The TSA would have no choice but to stop the program. This is probably the only way they would stop it (beyond legislation, ha.). Unfortunately this will never happen. People don't want to stand in line. Corporations have the money to shell out to give their travelling employees special treatment. Many will refuse step back and see that the only way to stop this shit is to make some personal sacrifices for the eventual reward of getting another lane back for everyone to use. Perhaps others and I are "dumb" to not want to pay up, but we do so in the hopes that others will follow suit. We refuse to be a single drop in the rain on the TSA's fields. Perhaps one day those fields will dry.
  - Elepsis 11y ago
    While I agree that if no one paid for PreCheck they'd probably stop the program, I think you're making a follow-on assumption which is "and then the security theater would get better for everyone else." What we're seeing with the hours-long lines right now is that this simply isn't true. The TSA has no particular incentive to reduce the number of hoops you have to jump through: if anything, a summer like this will probably increase their budget. So, indeed: pay up for PreCheck and smile because they've given you the opportunity.
  - praneshp 11y ago
    > Imagine if everyone (and I mean everyone) collectively said "This is bullshit. You miss an important concept (that I used to see all the time from administrators in India): Divide and Conquer. They will target some groups of people individually, and dangle some carrot/stick (Free/ Extra Harassment/ you don't have to stand in line with "them"). That's how "everyone" stops calling bullshit.

by luma 11y ago

sneak 11y ago

You can drop "around the country". Your nation or any other nation's national borders do not make free and unimpeded travel any less of a basic right for all people, in all places.

pessimizer 11y ago
Free and unimpeded travel is not a basic right for any people, in any place. It's supposed to be within the US, though, just like in Schengen. That's due to law, not some magical "right", though. edit: what is a "basic right" supposed to be, anyway? I missed that day in philosophy class.
- malchow 11y ago
  It's not even due to law; it's due to the founding nature of the Republic. Arguably not even a constitutional amendment could permit restrictions on Americans' interstate travel.
  - gumby 11y ago
    > Arguably not even a constitutional amendment could permit restrictions on Americans' interstate travel. You might think it would be arguable but John Gilmore discovered you can't even argue it -- the law is secret and cannot be discussed in open court, thus he had no standing to sue over it: https://papersplease.org/gilmore/ https://papersplease.org/gilmore/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilmore_v._Gonzales https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilmore_v._Gonzales The wikipedia entry is slightly misleading on one point: the ninth circuit said he could travel without ID (this case came about because I had been flying without ID and discussed it with John) -- his suit was that he had no choice due to a law he was not permitted to read (yet ignorance of that law is no defense!) and he argued that that was a violation of free speech + free assembly. Without being able to discuss the law in open court, the justification for the decision was a fig leaf.
- gumby 11y ago
  > what is a "basic right" supposed to be, anyway? I missed that day in philosophy class. Fundamental rights that are inherent to all humans by birth and cannot be justly alienated. It's a major philosophical topic you've probably seen reflected in the universal declaration of human rights, american declaration of independence, french revolutionary declaration of the rights of man etc . There's a terrible and anglocentric wikipedia page devoted to this topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_and_legal_rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_and_legal_rights
- wallabout 11y ago
  a right against "unreasonable search and seizure" applies at all times, including travel. Is the search "reasonable"? I personally don't think so, given that it's more symbolism than substance. But there is a right to be "unimpeded" to some extent. To say otherwise is disingenuous.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

avn2109 11y ago

My dad grew up under the Soviets, where he learned a thing or two about waste, inefficiency, and systematic corruption. He says the following: "If the government ever gives you the chance to bribe them, do it immediately and with a smile. Pay double if they'll let you. You'll always come out ahead in the long run." Precheck/Global entry is clearly unrelated to actual security; instead, it's an obvious shakedown, plain and simple. The TSA has given you a chance to pay them extra to be harassed less. From this perspective the GP is correct in practice - you'd be dumb not to pay up.

tyrust 11y ago
>you'd be dumb not to pay up It's a difficult decision, one that I've been wrestling with for a while. Imagine if everyone (and I mean everyone) collectively said "This is bullshit." and refused to pay for PreCheck. The TSA would have no choice but to stop the program. This is probably the only way they would stop it (beyond legislation, ha.). Unfortunately this will never happen. People don't want to stand in line. Corporations have the money to shell out to give their travelling employees special treatment. Many will refuse step back and see that the only way to stop this shit is to make some personal sacrifices for the eventual reward of getting another lane back for everyone to use. Perhaps others and I are "dumb" to not want to pay up, but we do so in the hopes that others will follow suit. We refuse to be a single drop in the rain on the TSA's fields. Perhaps one day those fields will dry.
- Elepsis 11y ago
  While I agree that if no one paid for PreCheck they'd probably stop the program, I think you're making a follow-on assumption which is "and then the security theater would get better for everyone else." What we're seeing with the hours-long lines right now is that this simply isn't true. The TSA has no particular incentive to reduce the number of hoops you have to jump through: if anything, a summer like this will probably increase their budget. So, indeed: pay up for PreCheck and smile because they've given you the opportunity.
- praneshp 11y ago
  > Imagine if everyone (and I mean everyone) collectively said "This is bullshit. You miss an important concept (that I used to see all the time from administrators in India): Divide and Conquer. They will target some groups of people individually, and dangle some carrot/stick (Free/ Extra Harassment/ you don't have to stand in line with "them"). That's how "everyone" stops calling bullshit.