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I don't think it's because of some conspiracy that EU leaders like Merkel favor TTIP. They probably think it's the right way to go, because TTIP will make EU's

I don't think it's because of some conspiracy that EU leaders like Merkel favor TTIP. They probably think it's the right way to go, because TTIP will make EU's economy grow. (See for example http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/html/151787.htm http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/html/151787.htm) And it is obvious that major internationals on both sides will be the ones that benefit most from the cuts in government regulations proposed by TTIP. So a substantial portion of the economic growth will go to them. Therefore I don't think you need to be in the tinfoil hat camp to support the believe that they are lobbying for TTIP. The mistake that our EU leaders make, IMO, is that what's good for the EU's economy, is not necessarily always good for the majority of its citizens. Those government regulations were there for a reason, for instance to protect the environment, support area's who are economically behind etc.

jcfrei 11y ago
Thanks, just to be clear: I'm not an advocate for TTIP.
- richmarr 11y ago
  Not sure where you're from, but it's hard to imagine a rational basis for the European public to be an advocate of it. My understanding of TTIP and TPP are that they're the US's last ditch attempt to standardise international trade along US lines before China overtakes and starts to set the tone. On that basis they kinda make sense from a US perspective. From an EU perspective not so much. (edit: not saying the US has a chance of staying ahead of China if TTIP/TPP are successful, just that standardised trade rules may soften China's negotiation position)
  - Grishnakh 11y ago
    And in theory, this is actually a really good idea, and something the Western nations should be doing. China's human rights and environment records are abysmal. It would be to the advantage of western nations to be more unified for their common benefit, and force China to catch up. However the TTIP/TPP are going the wrong way: they're trying to water down or eliminate environmental and consumer protections in favor of large corporations' profits. In other words, they're trying to lower the bar rather than to raise it as they should be. We really could use a standardized international trade treaty, but it has to be done in the open, and with input from more parties than just big corporations interested only in their profits, it needs input from environmental groups, workers' groups/unions, consumer rights advocates, food-safety organizations, etc.
    - richmarr 11y ago
      Agreed, and it's unnerving that lobby groups seem to have a degree of access that neither the public nor many of our elected representitives seem to have. My knowledge of history in this area clearly isn't strong enough; I have no idea how we got here.
  - riffraff 11y ago
    > Not sure where you're from, but it's hard to imagine a rational basis for the European public to be an advocate of it. Confindustria (the italian confederation of industrial companies) is strongly in favour of TTIP. Spirits exported to the US for example are heavily taxed, if they were not, we'd likely export more. Or, if we get geographic denominations protection, we can get walmart to stop producing 40 things called "asiago" or "parmesan" (as it happened for german produced parmesan, or in reverse for the italian Tocai wine which clashed with hungarian Tokaji) and than it's a win for the producers of the real stuff. Moreover in some things the US has _better_ legislation than europe, for example "bio" regulation is more strict, as are car safety rules, AFAIK. I am not saying this will work out for the best, I am saying there are supporters of TTIP on the european side too.
maxxxxx 11y ago
That's the real problem. The term "economy" has been captured by big corporations. When I grew up in Germany the economy was supposed to be a benefit to all participants and a balance had to be achieved. Now the economy is supposed to be fine as long as big business is happy. The regular citizen doesn't count anymore. TTIP is just the final expression of this. Whatever I hear only lobbyists have been involved. No other citizen organizations like unions, environmental organizations, politicians or wherever. Only big business.
- vasilipupkin 11y ago
  I'd like to point out that German economy and by extension, regular Germans, heavily depend on exports to the US. So, reducing frictions in trade between US and Europe should make regular Germans better off not worse off. How do you suppose German economy works ?
  - maxxxxx 11y ago
    I know Germany benefits big time from exports. But the benefits have stopped going to the workers. Like in the US wages are stagnating while the "economy" supposedly is doing well.
    - vasilipupkin 11y ago
      Really? How do you think Germany gets resources to pay for all the social benefits, pensions etc. if you think growth has stopped, then measures to raise it are a good thing
      - morsch 11y ago
        Growth has continued, net real wages haven't[0]. Although this seems to be changing[1]. [0] http://www.diw.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=diw_01.c.342374.de http://www.diw.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=diw_01.c.342374.de [1] http://www.dw.com/en/germans-enjoy-highest-real-wage-rise-in-decades/a-19026620 http://www.dw.com/en/germans-enjoy-highest-real-wage-rise-in...

jcfrei 11y ago

Thanks, just to be clear: I'm not an advocate for TTIP.

richmarr 11y ago
Not sure where you're from, but it's hard to imagine a rational basis for the European public to be an advocate of it. My understanding of TTIP and TPP are that they're the US's last ditch attempt to standardise international trade along US lines before China overtakes and starts to set the tone. On that basis they kinda make sense from a US perspective. From an EU perspective not so much. (edit: not saying the US has a chance of staying ahead of China if TTIP/TPP are successful, just that standardised trade rules may soften China's negotiation position)
- Grishnakh 11y ago
  And in theory, this is actually a really good idea, and something the Western nations should be doing. China's human rights and environment records are abysmal. It would be to the advantage of western nations to be more unified for their common benefit, and force China to catch up. However the TTIP/TPP are going the wrong way: they're trying to water down or eliminate environmental and consumer protections in favor of large corporations' profits. In other words, they're trying to lower the bar rather than to raise it as they should be. We really could use a standardized international trade treaty, but it has to be done in the open, and with input from more parties than just big corporations interested only in their profits, it needs input from environmental groups, workers' groups/unions, consumer rights advocates, food-safety organizations, etc.
  - richmarr 11y ago
    Agreed, and it's unnerving that lobby groups seem to have a degree of access that neither the public nor many of our elected representitives seem to have. My knowledge of history in this area clearly isn't strong enough; I have no idea how we got here.
- riffraff 11y ago
  > Not sure where you're from, but it's hard to imagine a rational basis for the European public to be an advocate of it. Confindustria (the italian confederation of industrial companies) is strongly in favour of TTIP. Spirits exported to the US for example are heavily taxed, if they were not, we'd likely export more. Or, if we get geographic denominations protection, we can get walmart to stop producing 40 things called "asiago" or "parmesan" (as it happened for german produced parmesan, or in reverse for the italian Tocai wine which clashed with hungarian Tokaji) and than it's a win for the producers of the real stuff. Moreover in some things the US has _better_ legislation than europe, for example "bio" regulation is more strict, as are car safety rules, AFAIK. I am not saying this will work out for the best, I am saying there are supporters of TTIP on the european side too.

maxxxxx 11y ago

That's the real problem. The term "economy" has been captured by big corporations. When I grew up in Germany the economy was supposed to be a benefit to all participants and a balance had to be achieved. Now the economy is supposed to be fine as long as big business is happy. The regular citizen doesn't count anymore. TTIP is just the final expression of this. Whatever I hear only lobbyists have been involved. No other citizen organizations like unions, environmental organizations, politicians or wherever. Only big business.

vasilipupkin 11y ago
I'd like to point out that German economy and by extension, regular Germans, heavily depend on exports to the US. So, reducing frictions in trade between US and Europe should make regular Germans better off not worse off. How do you suppose German economy works ?
- maxxxxx 11y ago
  I know Germany benefits big time from exports. But the benefits have stopped going to the workers. Like in the US wages are stagnating while the "economy" supposedly is doing well.
  - vasilipupkin 11y ago
    Really? How do you think Germany gets resources to pay for all the social benefits, pensions etc. if you think growth has stopped, then measures to raise it are a good thing
    - morsch 11y ago
      Growth has continued, net real wages haven't[0]. Although this seems to be changing[1]. [0] http://www.diw.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=diw_01.c.342374.de http://www.diw.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=diw_01.c.342374.de [1] http://www.dw.com/en/germans-enjoy-highest-real-wage-rise-in-decades/a-19026620 http://www.dw.com/en/germans-enjoy-highest-real-wage-rise-in...