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> The big irony being that this is not a willed construct, but a emergent phenomena. I'm pretty sure I saw the link to this essay on HN first, and it's still o
by PavlovsCat 11y ago
> The big irony being that this is not a willed construct, but a emergent phenomena.
I'm pretty sure I saw the link to this essay on HN first, and it's still one of the more interesting ones I know. I'll quote a bit, but the whole thing is worth a read if not several:
http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/
> There’s a passage in the Principia Discordia where Malaclypse complains to the Goddess about the evils of human society. “Everyone is hurting each other, the planet is rampant with injustices, whole societies plunder groups of their own people, mothers imprison sons, children perish while brothers war.”
> The Goddess answers: “What is the matter with that, if it’s what you want to do?”
> Malaclypse: “But nobody wants it! Everybody hates it!”
> Goddess: “Oh. Well, then stop.”
> The implicit question is – if everyone hates the current system, who perpetuates it? And Ginsberg answers: “Moloch”. It’s powerful not because it’s correct – nobody literally thinks an ancient Carthaginian demon causes everything – but because thinking of the system as an agent throws into relief the degree to which the system isn’t an agent.
> Bostrom makes an offhanded reference of the possibility of a dictatorless dystopia, one that every single citizen including the leadership hates but which nevertheless endures unconquered. It’s easy enough to imagine such a state. Imagine a country with two rules: first, every person must spend eight hours a day giving themselves strong electric shocks. Second, if anyone fails to follow a rule (including this one), or speaks out against it, or fails to enforce it, all citizens must unite to kill that person. Suppose these rules were well-enough established by tradition that everyone expected them to be enforced.
> So you shock yourself for eight hours a day, because you know if you don’t everyone else will kill you, because if you don’t, everyone else will kill them, and so on. Every single citizen hates the system, but for lack of a good coordination mechanism it endures. From a god’s-eye-view, we can optimize the system to “everyone agrees to stop doing this at once”, but no one within the system is able to effect the transition without great risk to themselves.
> And okay, this example is kind of contrived. So let’s run through – let’s say ten – real world examples of similar multipolar traps to really hammer in how important this is.
- Retra 11y agoSounds like maybe a group of people just can't change the way they operate without massive communication overhead, which is also unwanted, possibly even more so than the ill effects being complained about. Or it may be unrealistic to sustain or create. EDIT: Taking a second look at this... Whenever I read things like this, I'm going through and hearing some assumptions stated up front that always seem off to me. "The history is written by the victors, and the victors are those who are the most ruthless." The missing ingredient, as far as I can tell, is that reading history is an act of cooperation, not of competition, and that you can optimize for cooperation in a competitive context. You just need to find an appropriate context in which to compete to force people to cooperate to that end. Which is also why I'm generally irate when people go on and on about the values of competition while only giving a a sentence or two about the values of cooperation, or how the values of these two behaviors can be intertwined in complex and productive ways.