4 ms·

Actually, it depends. In Uber's case yes it would be the 409A as there is no secondary market. If there were a secondary market, it would be the last sales pric

by scurvy 11y ago

Actually, it depends. In Uber's case yes it would be the 409A as there is no secondary market. If there were a secondary market, it would be the last sales price from the day you exercised, not 409A value. The IRS guidelines say the spread between grant price and fair market valuation. If there's a secondary market, that's your fair market, not 409A (which is a joke anyway). Also, most companies use the last public valuation as a basis for 409A valuation rather than hiring someone to do it in a separate process. The investors buying shares are the experts here. Of course there are considerations for preferred vs common stock and things like warrants, but they start at the top line number from the last round.

heyjonboy 11y ago
No, that's incorrect (speaking as a founder who's raised $35mm and sold shares on the private market). Private financings will trigger a new 409a valuation but won't influence it. 409A valuations are typically based on Black Scholes and have no connection to private funding valuations. Secondary sales only affect fair market if there's a functioning secondary market, and AFAIK there are no private startups with a FUNCTIONING secondary market.
- scurvy 11y ago
  You can do 409A however you want which is why I said it was a joke. I've worked in 2 places that based it off of last round after accounting for full dilution. You can use black Scholes, last round, or your finger in the air it doesn't matter. If it had to be accurate they wouldn't allow Black Scholes which has been all but disproven. Also there are lots of secondary markets for private companies right now. What makes you think otherwise?
  - steven2012 11y ago
    Okay thanks for confirming you don't know what you're talking about. Black scholes is options valuation and never used in 409A valuation. You can't just make stuff up, you have to justify it to your auditors.
    - scurvy 11y ago
      Options valuation is derived from your 409A valuation...and heyjon used Black Scholes to derive present option value. The two are related. Black Scholes is considered to be massively flawed by the larger public options market, but it's still used a lot in the private equity options side. Hence, why I said that it really could be whatever you wanted. If there were a legit requirement that it be an accurate valuation, you could never get away with Black Scholes. It's common knowledge that it's seriously flawed. As for 409A valuation, I've never heard of an auditor seriously examining it or questioning its validity. It's mostly the "valuation expert" says, "What value do you want for 409A?" You tell them, they ask to see the books, and then say "OK I can sign off on that."
    - encoderer 11y ago
      Black Scholes is used to value options, eg to set the strike price on options. So, it is used for this purpose by companies who need to set option strikes at fmv. I have no idea why he says it's been repudiated. As far as I know, it is still used in public market option pricing. Most people buying or selling options are not pricing them, but accepting the market makers price. How would you have any clue how they're coming to that value?
      - scurvy 11y ago
        I previously wrote software at a major market maker. I can't say (NDA) what they use, but most professionals consider Black Scholes to be mickey mouse. If you're using it in the public market, you're not going to fare well on American style options. As for real world proof of Black Scholes being garbage, it doesn't get any better than Long Term Capital Management.
        huac 11y ago
        Black-Scholes (and the Merton version) are useful as simple estimates of option prices. Of course it's not going to be accurate (it assumes a lognormal distribution for volatility, JFC) - but the model is public and easy to calculate, providing a stable basis for these kinds of prices. Edit: people buying/selling options are of course performing their own pricing operations. They don't care how the market price is determined, since they believe their model is the best and gives more accurate prices than anyone else. Edit 2: furthermore, to properly price startup options, you need to account for their 'random-expiration' nature: we have no idea when Uber will IPO. this makes it difficult to use traditional option pricing models which have fixed maturities (you can take integrals over the model's results at each possible maturity). additionally, choosing a discount rate is hard when realizing that most employees are not well-diversified, unlike the investors/funds that the traditional models are written for
steven2012 11y ago
This is wrong information. 409A valuations are generally based on revenue models, profit models (not applicable for most startups) or comparatives. It's not done based on funding rounds because there's a lot of goodwill based in that. Most companies push the 409A valuations as low as possible precisely because of income tax ramifications on exercise.
- scurvy 11y ago
  It depends on what the actual market value of your stock is upon exercise, not just 409A. Sure, it might be the 409A value, or it could be the last sales price on something like SecondMarket. If there's a secondary private market, that will trump whatever your company says the 409A value was. If your company says the 409A is $1.50/share but people are selling on secondary markets for $4/share, you must use $4/share when computing your exercise benefit. If there's no secondary market, it's the last 409A value.
  - redshirtrob 11y ago
    This is an interesting conversation. I wish someone with readily verifiable credentials could weigh in. I'm not saying the parent, or GP do not have the credentials, just that they've not been established. I'd love to hear from an accountant or tax attorney on the topic. From what I can tell, taxes will be based on the values in Form 3921 (for ISOs and ESPPs), which is delivered by the employer.[0] Here's a sample 3921.[1] The FMV is delivered in Box 4. My question is where does that value come from? Is it the last 409A valuation, or is it required to use sale data from secondary markets? I've received several of these forms over the years, and the FMV has always been the value from the last 409A. I have no idea if there was a secondary market for the shares. [0] https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc427.html https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc427.html [1] https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f3921.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f3921.pdf
    - scurvy 11y ago
      If you get a 3921, use what's there; the burden of accuracy is on the company. I worked at a place that didn't issue 3921's (in the .com go round). I had a hell of a time reaching someone still at the company who could give me that information almost a year later (and after several rounds of devastating layoffs). I really don't know what she based the figure on.

by scurvy 11y ago

heyjonboy 11y ago

No, that's incorrect (speaking as a founder who's raised $35mm and sold shares on the private market). Private financings will trigger a new 409a valuation but won't influence it. 409A valuations are typically based on Black Scholes and have no connection to private funding valuations. Secondary sales only affect fair market if there's a functioning secondary market, and AFAIK there are no private startups with a FUNCTIONING secondary market.

scurvy 11y ago
You can do 409A however you want which is why I said it was a joke. I've worked in 2 places that based it off of last round after accounting for full dilution. You can use black Scholes, last round, or your finger in the air it doesn't matter. If it had to be accurate they wouldn't allow Black Scholes which has been all but disproven. Also there are lots of secondary markets for private companies right now. What makes you think otherwise?
- steven2012 11y ago
  Okay thanks for confirming you don't know what you're talking about. Black scholes is options valuation and never used in 409A valuation. You can't just make stuff up, you have to justify it to your auditors.
  - scurvy 11y ago
    Options valuation is derived from your 409A valuation...and heyjon used Black Scholes to derive present option value. The two are related. Black Scholes is considered to be massively flawed by the larger public options market, but it's still used a lot in the private equity options side. Hence, why I said that it really could be whatever you wanted. If there were a legit requirement that it be an accurate valuation, you could never get away with Black Scholes. It's common knowledge that it's seriously flawed. As for 409A valuation, I've never heard of an auditor seriously examining it or questioning its validity. It's mostly the "valuation expert" says, "What value do you want for 409A?" You tell them, they ask to see the books, and then say "OK I can sign off on that."
  - encoderer 11y ago
    Black Scholes is used to value options, eg to set the strike price on options. So, it is used for this purpose by companies who need to set option strikes at fmv. I have no idea why he says it's been repudiated. As far as I know, it is still used in public market option pricing. Most people buying or selling options are not pricing them, but accepting the market makers price. How would you have any clue how they're coming to that value?
    - scurvy 11y ago
      I previously wrote software at a major market maker. I can't say (NDA) what they use, but most professionals consider Black Scholes to be mickey mouse. If you're using it in the public market, you're not going to fare well on American style options. As for real world proof of Black Scholes being garbage, it doesn't get any better than Long Term Capital Management.
      - huac 11y ago
        Black-Scholes (and the Merton version) are useful as simple estimates of option prices. Of course it's not going to be accurate (it assumes a lognormal distribution for volatility, JFC) - but the model is public and easy to calculate, providing a stable basis for these kinds of prices. Edit: people buying/selling options are of course performing their own pricing operations. They don't care how the market price is determined, since they believe their model is the best and gives more accurate prices than anyone else. Edit 2: furthermore, to properly price startup options, you need to account for their 'random-expiration' nature: we have no idea when Uber will IPO. this makes it difficult to use traditional option pricing models which have fixed maturities (you can take integrals over the model's results at each possible maturity). additionally, choosing a discount rate is hard when realizing that most employees are not well-diversified, unlike the investors/funds that the traditional models are written for

steven2012 11y ago

This is wrong information. 409A valuations are generally based on revenue models, profit models (not applicable for most startups) or comparatives. It's not done based on funding rounds because there's a lot of goodwill based in that. Most companies push the 409A valuations as low as possible precisely because of income tax ramifications on exercise.

scurvy 11y ago
It depends on what the actual market value of your stock is upon exercise, not just 409A. Sure, it might be the 409A value, or it could be the last sales price on something like SecondMarket. If there's a secondary private market, that will trump whatever your company says the 409A value was. If your company says the 409A is $1.50/share but people are selling on secondary markets for $4/share, you must use $4/share when computing your exercise benefit. If there's no secondary market, it's the last 409A value.
- redshirtrob 11y ago
  This is an interesting conversation. I wish someone with readily verifiable credentials could weigh in. I'm not saying the parent, or GP do not have the credentials, just that they've not been established. I'd love to hear from an accountant or tax attorney on the topic. From what I can tell, taxes will be based on the values in Form 3921 (for ISOs and ESPPs), which is delivered by the employer.[0] Here's a sample 3921.[1] The FMV is delivered in Box 4. My question is where does that value come from? Is it the last 409A valuation, or is it required to use sale data from secondary markets? I've received several of these forms over the years, and the FMV has always been the value from the last 409A. I have no idea if there was a secondary market for the shares. [0] https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc427.html https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc427.html [1] https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f3921.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f3921.pdf
  - scurvy 11y ago
    If you get a 3921, use what's there; the burden of accuracy is on the company. I worked at a place that didn't issue 3921's (in the .com go round). I had a hell of a time reaching someone still at the company who could give me that information almost a year later (and after several rounds of devastating layoffs). I really don't know what she based the figure on.