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My Nest has saved me money and helped the power grid and the environment. I don't think that one is a good example of complexity for it's own sake. Plus using t

by ssmoot 10y ago

My Nest has saved me money and helped the power grid and the environment. I don't think that one is a good example of complexity for it's own sake. Plus using the Nest is just a lot nicer than the expensive pure garbage that came before it. Security cameras, a remote deadbolt, door/window sensors you can remotely monitor (a lot cheaper than a subscription to ADT or whatever), these are all pretty nice as connected devices. I don't see going back. I don't want to be throwing money down the drain either though. And the market will fail here. Most Nest users that got burned will buy another Nest. Of course you will because there's maybe one other thermostat at the home store that isn't garbage? And they still cost about as much.

Mister_Snuggles 10y ago
I've got a handful of DLink WiFi cameras that, in my mind, are almost the perfect way to do IoT. They've got an app and can do all their stuff through the cloud, but I have them running on a separate WiFi network that is unable to access the internet. The cameras don't actually need that access, I just lose the cloud features. This is, for me anyway, a really good way to do it. Consumers that want the stuff that the cloud gives them (easy remote monitoring, etc) can have it. Consumers like me that would rather roll their own recording system and access the cameras by VPN can do that too. This is possible because the cameras serve up a MJPEG stream at a specific URL, in addition to however they communicate with the cloud stuff. If DLink does go out of business (I hope they don't because I'm going to buy more of these cameras), all of my stuff will just keep working. I'd love to see more IoT stuff that works this way.
- dstroot 10y ago
  So... you prefer "Internet" of things that do not connect to the Internet? (go ahead and downvote - just could not resist)
  - Mister_Snuggles 10y ago
    Ironically, in some cases that's exactly what I want! But what it really boils down to is that the Internet piece should be optional and the device should still function (perhaps in a reduced capacity) if whatever it's accessing on the Internet goes away.
  - ams6110 10y ago
    Absolutely! There are many useful things I might want to do privately on an isolated network, that are not really compelling if I have to send everything to a third party with a 10 page privacy policy agreement.
  - echelon 10y ago
    I want them connected to my personal network. If they connect to the Internet, it'll be through the gateway I wrote.
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    Yes, many of us would like for the "I" in "IoT" to stand for "intranet". Cloud-dependence and routing all that data through the Internet is both insecure, wasteful and completely idiotic from engineering standpoint. It's done because companies are testing a new way of extracting money from non-tech-savvy but tech-liking population.
- CWuestefeld 10y ago
  Similarly, my house has two Honeywell networked thermostats. These are networked devices controllable via smartphone or web app, etc. But if the company stopped providing the service behind it, they're still perfectly adequate programmable thermostats. They'll keep on working fine, albeit requiring manual programming, rather than turn into paperweights. I fail to see the excitement about the Nest, and I claim that yours hasn't saved you any money compared to mine, even adjusted for effort involved. The time it took me to set up my device - when I actually know what our work/home schedule is, so no training is involved, is minimal. And there's no confusion in the device when, at this time of year, I want to just use outside air through open windows to keep my home cool. A device that can leverage the human mind's power is great. A device that simply replaces one flavor of (trivial) mental effort with a different one isn't terribly valuable.
  - Mister_Snuggles 10y ago
    I agree with your assessment of the Nest. The number of times I've wanted to turn the heat on or off when I'm not at home is exactly zero. I've got a manually-programmable Honeywell and it's been working fine for over five years. Apart from the very occasional adjustments (daylight saving time, resetting the furnace filter reminder, and replacing batteries) it needs very little care and feeding.
vonmoltke 10y ago
> door/window sensors you can remotely monitor (a lot cheaper than a subscription to ADT or whatever) ADT's value is that they continuously monitor the system status, contact you when it changes, and dispatch the police for true alarms. Unmonitored alarms have been a thing for decades. > Of course you will because there's maybe one other thermostat at the home store that isn't garbage? What is your definition of "garbage"? I have had no issues buying thermostats, either before or since the Nest. > And they still cost about as much. Huh? The Nest is $250. I never have, and probably never will, pay more than $100 for a thermostat, and usually pay less than $50.
- ethbro 10y ago
  > Unmonitored alarms have been a thing for decades. Not in quite the same way, as people haven't been carrying around constantly connected mobile devices they could be alerted on. (You can't remote view a camera on a pager)
- ssmoot 10y ago
  I don't much care if police or fire is dispatched while we're out of the house. That's what insurance is for. I much prefer having the ability to monitor myself without an exorbitant monthly fee (I'm guessing it varies, but in my area it's typically about $100/month). It's mostly just to ensure I didn't drive off and leave the garage door open again anyways. I bought several high-end 5 or 7 day programmable thermostats. Looking at Home Depot right now most of those are still pushing $200. And they're "Indiglo" pieces of junk that will be almost entirely illegible in a year's time IME. The Honeywell Lyric for example can't turn on/off the fan on the device. You also can't schedule on the device. Need the app for that. And the app appears broken for a lot of users. Nest just got a lot of things right. My only real complaint is the scheduling UX is kinda goofy. But it does work, and it's much quicker than any other I've tried. Otherwise it does everything I want and it's saved me money. That's a convenience and utility worth paying a bit more for to me. This stuff mostly comes down to saving money to me. In the same way I buy my iPhone outright and spend $45/month for a 5Gb/unlimited-minutes phone plan, I like the idea of spending a bit more up-front to be more liquid later. But back to thermostats. After reading the reviews this morning, unless you want to buy into a Kickstarter or something (with it's own risks), the market still seems to be mostly "garbage" IMO. Maybe the Ecobee is a decent Nest alternative? I dunno. I've had my Nest for about 5 years now. It's paid for itself. Hopefully I don't have to find out what else is out there anytime soon.

by ssmoot 10y ago

Mister_Snuggles 10y ago

I've got a handful of DLink WiFi cameras that, in my mind, are almost the perfect way to do IoT. They've got an app and can do all their stuff through the cloud, but I have them running on a separate WiFi network that is unable to access the internet. The cameras don't actually need that access, I just lose the cloud features. This is, for me anyway, a really good way to do it. Consumers that want the stuff that the cloud gives them (easy remote monitoring, etc) can have it. Consumers like me that would rather roll their own recording system and access the cameras by VPN can do that too. This is possible because the cameras serve up a MJPEG stream at a specific URL, in addition to however they communicate with the cloud stuff. If DLink does go out of business (I hope they don't because I'm going to buy more of these cameras), all of my stuff will just keep working. I'd love to see more IoT stuff that works this way.

dstroot 10y ago
So... you prefer "Internet" of things that do not connect to the Internet? (go ahead and downvote - just could not resist)
- Mister_Snuggles 10y ago
  Ironically, in some cases that's exactly what I want! But what it really boils down to is that the Internet piece should be optional and the device should still function (perhaps in a reduced capacity) if whatever it's accessing on the Internet goes away.
- ams6110 10y ago
  Absolutely! There are many useful things I might want to do privately on an isolated network, that are not really compelling if I have to send everything to a third party with a 10 page privacy policy agreement.
- echelon 10y ago
  I want them connected to my personal network. If they connect to the Internet, it'll be through the gateway I wrote.
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  Yes, many of us would like for the "I" in "IoT" to stand for "intranet". Cloud-dependence and routing all that data through the Internet is both insecure, wasteful and completely idiotic from engineering standpoint. It's done because companies are testing a new way of extracting money from non-tech-savvy but tech-liking population.
CWuestefeld 10y ago
Similarly, my house has two Honeywell networked thermostats. These are networked devices controllable via smartphone or web app, etc. But if the company stopped providing the service behind it, they're still perfectly adequate programmable thermostats. They'll keep on working fine, albeit requiring manual programming, rather than turn into paperweights. I fail to see the excitement about the Nest, and I claim that yours hasn't saved you any money compared to mine, even adjusted for effort involved. The time it took me to set up my device - when I actually know what our work/home schedule is, so no training is involved, is minimal. And there's no confusion in the device when, at this time of year, I want to just use outside air through open windows to keep my home cool. A device that can leverage the human mind's power is great. A device that simply replaces one flavor of (trivial) mental effort with a different one isn't terribly valuable.
- Mister_Snuggles 10y ago
  I agree with your assessment of the Nest. The number of times I've wanted to turn the heat on or off when I'm not at home is exactly zero. I've got a manually-programmable Honeywell and it's been working fine for over five years. Apart from the very occasional adjustments (daylight saving time, resetting the furnace filter reminder, and replacing batteries) it needs very little care and feeding.

vonmoltke 10y ago

> door/window sensors you can remotely monitor (a lot cheaper than a subscription to ADT or whatever) ADT's value is that they continuously monitor the system status, contact you when it changes, and dispatch the police for true alarms. Unmonitored alarms have been a thing for decades. > Of course you will because there's maybe one other thermostat at the home store that isn't garbage? What is your definition of "garbage"? I have had no issues buying thermostats, either before or since the Nest. > And they still cost about as much. Huh? The Nest is $250. I never have, and probably never will, pay more than $100 for a thermostat, and usually pay less than $50.

ethbro 10y ago
> Unmonitored alarms have been a thing for decades. Not in quite the same way, as people haven't been carrying around constantly connected mobile devices they could be alerted on. (You can't remote view a camera on a pager)
ssmoot 10y ago
I don't much care if police or fire is dispatched while we're out of the house. That's what insurance is for. I much prefer having the ability to monitor myself without an exorbitant monthly fee (I'm guessing it varies, but in my area it's typically about $100/month). It's mostly just to ensure I didn't drive off and leave the garage door open again anyways. I bought several high-end 5 or 7 day programmable thermostats. Looking at Home Depot right now most of those are still pushing $200. And they're "Indiglo" pieces of junk that will be almost entirely illegible in a year's time IME. The Honeywell Lyric for example can't turn on/off the fan on the device. You also can't schedule on the device. Need the app for that. And the app appears broken for a lot of users. Nest just got a lot of things right. My only real complaint is the scheduling UX is kinda goofy. But it does work, and it's much quicker than any other I've tried. Otherwise it does everything I want and it's saved me money. That's a convenience and utility worth paying a bit more for to me. This stuff mostly comes down to saving money to me. In the same way I buy my iPhone outright and spend $45/month for a 5Gb/unlimited-minutes phone plan, I like the idea of spending a bit more up-front to be more liquid later. But back to thermostats. After reading the reviews this morning, unless you want to buy into a Kickstarter or something (with it's own risks), the market still seems to be mostly "garbage" IMO. Maybe the Ecobee is a decent Nest alternative? I dunno. I've had my Nest for about 5 years now. It's paid for itself. Hopefully I don't have to find out what else is out there anytime soon.