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In isolation, each of Apple's poor actions towards developers can be explained away. But in aggregate the collective paper cuts wear down a lot of the goodwill

In isolation, each of Apple's poor actions towards developers can be explained away. But in aggregate the collective paper cuts wear down a lot of the goodwill that Apple has with developers. There's a lot of hope riding on this WWDC turning stuff around, but I'm not too hopeful.

rocky1138 10y ago
I tried to convince a non-developer (and Apple lover) about this a few months ago but got nowhere. Developers are like bellwethers: if they hate you, even if you're successful now, your product/service is doomed.
- nl 10y ago
  Oracle.
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    I happen to be an HNer that has been on the Oracle developer list since the late 90's. I am yet to see a FOSS SQL database to match Oracle's tooling for database programming. The only ones I had similar good experience are with Microsoft and Informix (before it was acquired by IBM) databases.
    - gaius 10y ago
      Same here. Once you get over the hump of treating it as a database and start using it as a platform, nothing can touch Oracle. But most people, even most long-term Oracle customers deeply invested in it, barely scratch the surface
      - nikanj 10y ago
        Nobody has the budget for licensing the more advanced bits. One of the tragedies of the computing world is how many great features remain locked to a really small subset of clients, because they're only available in the top-tier, more-money-than-god, if-you-have-to-ask-you-can't-afford-it edition
        gaius 10y ago
        Nobody? I think what you'll actually find is no-one pays list price...
        vittore 10y ago
        oh I wish some one can tell me how to get Sql Server Enterprise license at a price of standard i am paying now...
    - infinite8s 10y ago
      Can you briefly describe some of that tooling?
      - pjmlp 10y ago
        The ones I care about: - The capabilities of PL/SQL and TransactSQL, FOSS databases don't have as feature rich programming language for stored procedures. - Ability to mix relation, object oriented and unstructured data modeling - The SQL features and extensions - Distributed transactions across multiple databases across clusters - The SQL Developer IDE or integration with Visual Studio, without relying on third parties
        Retric 10y ago
        My General experence is stored procedures and even transactions scale really poorly. I have seen several ex-oracle projects and it really only seems to work well for hospitals and other organizations that don't grow. Or banks which have relativly few transactions per day. Ed: Or the old Cognos Big Data (No Users). Any thoughts?
        pjmlp 10y ago
        I have been involved in some telecommunications and health care projects in a couple of Fortune 500, using Informix, Oracle and SQL Server backends, which had more GB on their databases than most big data projects I see being tossed around in big data startups. Of course it is a personal experience and I cannot generalize, but on those projects we had all the scale we needed. All the issues we had, the DBAs could sort them out after checking the query optimizers and fine tune the model and respective indexes.
        pjc50 10y ago
        > transactions scale really poorly Please be more specific about 'scaling' numbers! > Or banks which have relativly few transactions per day. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/11672021/Mobile-banking-has-eclipsed-branches-and-even-the-rest-of-the-internet.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfina... "Banking apps were used 10.5m times a day across the country in March, eclipsing the 9.6m daily log-ins to internet banking services"
  - Joeri 10y ago
    You know, Oracle is not so bad for developers if you can get their attention. Basically, if you pay enough, or promise to pay enough (in a pre-sales track), you get treated well. Then again, there is PL/SQL. If any technology ever demonstrated a casual but deep hatred of the developers that must endure it, it is that one.
- santaclaus 10y ago
  Salesforce -- successful business, hated by every programmer who has ever touched it.
  - codeulike 10y ago
    I don't mind it. With SF you've got to remember they've been updating and extending the same live platform for over ten years. It's amazing that it's as cohesive as it is.
  - polskibus 10y ago
    For all their revenue, they almost never turned a profit. They are popular but I wouldn't call it successful in business sense.
  - skj 10y ago
    My wife, who is a sales director, loves SalesForce. Maybe programmers aren't their target market?
    - warfangle 10y ago
      Nope, but they are required if you want to do anything on it that's custom. And Apex as a platform is a nightmare to work with.
  - dclowd9901 10y ago
    I can attribute this one to developers having to interact with sales force on behalf of their bosses. Hard to refuse usin a technology if your boss tells you you need to support it.
bendbro 10y ago
What are the rumors? I'd consider myself anti-apple, but it still saddens me that they aren't doing cool stuff anymore.
CydeWeys 10y ago
Does Apple have goodwill with developers? I can't think of the last time that would have been the case.

rocky1138 10y ago

I tried to convince a non-developer (and Apple lover) about this a few months ago but got nowhere. Developers are like bellwethers: if they hate you, even if you're successful now, your product/service is doomed.

nl 10y ago
Oracle.
- pjmlp 10y ago
  I happen to be an HNer that has been on the Oracle developer list since the late 90's. I am yet to see a FOSS SQL database to match Oracle's tooling for database programming. The only ones I had similar good experience are with Microsoft and Informix (before it was acquired by IBM) databases.
  - gaius 10y ago
    Same here. Once you get over the hump of treating it as a database and start using it as a platform, nothing can touch Oracle. But most people, even most long-term Oracle customers deeply invested in it, barely scratch the surface
    - nikanj 10y ago
      Nobody has the budget for licensing the more advanced bits. One of the tragedies of the computing world is how many great features remain locked to a really small subset of clients, because they're only available in the top-tier, more-money-than-god, if-you-have-to-ask-you-can't-afford-it edition
      - gaius 10y ago
        Nobody? I think what you'll actually find is no-one pays list price...
        vittore 10y ago
        oh I wish some one can tell me how to get Sql Server Enterprise license at a price of standard i am paying now...
  - infinite8s 10y ago
    Can you briefly describe some of that tooling?
    - pjmlp 10y ago
      The ones I care about: - The capabilities of PL/SQL and TransactSQL, FOSS databases don't have as feature rich programming language for stored procedures. - Ability to mix relation, object oriented and unstructured data modeling - The SQL features and extensions - Distributed transactions across multiple databases across clusters - The SQL Developer IDE or integration with Visual Studio, without relying on third parties
      - Retric 10y ago
        My General experence is stored procedures and even transactions scale really poorly. I have seen several ex-oracle projects and it really only seems to work well for hospitals and other organizations that don't grow. Or banks which have relativly few transactions per day. Ed: Or the old Cognos Big Data (No Users). Any thoughts?
        pjmlp 10y ago
        I have been involved in some telecommunications and health care projects in a couple of Fortune 500, using Informix, Oracle and SQL Server backends, which had more GB on their databases than most big data projects I see being tossed around in big data startups. Of course it is a personal experience and I cannot generalize, but on those projects we had all the scale we needed. All the issues we had, the DBAs could sort them out after checking the query optimizers and fine tune the model and respective indexes.
        pjc50 10y ago
        > transactions scale really poorly Please be more specific about 'scaling' numbers! > Or banks which have relativly few transactions per day. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/11672021/Mobile-banking-has-eclipsed-branches-and-even-the-rest-of-the-internet.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfina... "Banking apps were used 10.5m times a day across the country in March, eclipsing the 9.6m daily log-ins to internet banking services"
- Joeri 10y ago
  You know, Oracle is not so bad for developers if you can get their attention. Basically, if you pay enough, or promise to pay enough (in a pre-sales track), you get treated well. Then again, there is PL/SQL. If any technology ever demonstrated a casual but deep hatred of the developers that must endure it, it is that one.
santaclaus 10y ago
Salesforce -- successful business, hated by every programmer who has ever touched it.
- codeulike 10y ago
  I don't mind it. With SF you've got to remember they've been updating and extending the same live platform for over ten years. It's amazing that it's as cohesive as it is.
- polskibus 10y ago
  For all their revenue, they almost never turned a profit. They are popular but I wouldn't call it successful in business sense.
- skj 10y ago
  My wife, who is a sales director, loves SalesForce. Maybe programmers aren't their target market?
  - warfangle 10y ago
    Nope, but they are required if you want to do anything on it that's custom. And Apex as a platform is a nightmare to work with.
- dclowd9901 10y ago
  I can attribute this one to developers having to interact with sales force on behalf of their bosses. Hard to refuse usin a technology if your boss tells you you need to support it.

bendbro 10y ago

What are the rumors? I'd consider myself anti-apple, but it still saddens me that they aren't doing cool stuff anymore.

CydeWeys 10y ago

Does Apple have goodwill with developers? I can't think of the last time that would have been the case.