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#haskell on freenode has always had s reputation of being open, welcoming and helpful. Try not to mistake pretension for someone talking about something you don

by axman6 10y ago

#haskell on freenode has always had s reputation of being open, welcoming and helpful. Try not to mistake pretension for someone talking about something you don't yet understand, which is very often the case when someone is accused of being an pretentious arsehole. Simon is by no means alone in his manner and friendliness within the Haskell community.

nv-vn 10y ago
For the record, I don't think that the Haskell community is particularly bad. It's just something that I've heard plenty of times from people who have been exposed to the (tiny) bad parts of this community before learning the language that feel unwelcome (think the zealot-y types who reject any discussion as bad if it doesn't involve their favorite language (and this problem isn't unique to Haskell)).
- lil1729 10y ago
  There are certain people in the community who are very opinionated. Some go one step ahead and abuse others who don't use their favourite language. For instance, see these two posts (comments). [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20150628010942/http://timkellogg.me/blog/2014/01/19/I-get-excited-about-go https://web.archive.org/web/20150628010942/http://timkellogg... [2] http://roseland.io/blog/2014/05/10/number-golang-the-next-great-teaching-language/#comment-1379154769 http://roseland.io/blog/2014/05/10/number-golang-the-next-gr... These comments are unfortunate. These two individuals, in no means represent the entire community. But such people are toxic for an otherwise great bunch of people like SPJ, Phil Wadler and other folks.
  - yokohummer7 10y ago
    The problem is that the brand new Haskell Programming book, which seems to be recommended nowadays among Haskellers, is being written by bitemyapp (the one described in the first link). He's been bitching other languages, especially Go. He even stated Haskell is simpler than Go, which just shows his twisted reality. It is very unfortunate that such a toxic person is influential to the community.
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      But Haskell is simpler than Go (in a similar way that Lisp is), so that's a poor example of "twisted reality".
    - forkerenok 10y ago
      On the contrary, I think that is a good side of Chris Allen (@bytemyapp), he truly believes that everyone (I'm not even narrowing it down to software engineers) has capability to comprehend the core ideas of Haskell and become as proficient with it as you are with other languages and then delve into more evolved topics when you feel like it. Like a true evangelist. He is frustrated with misrepresentation of Haskell in wider programmers' community and to his credit he is working hard to fix this. (Though his book is quite pricey :) ) I don't really know how much of a Haskell fanatic he is, but one should not turn his back on a person just because he is saying something you disagree with or don't want to hear (like belittling other languages).
      - danieldk 10y ago
        Like a true evangelist. He is frustrated with misrepresentation of Haskell in wider programmers' community and to his credit he is working hard to fix this. Learn yourself a Haskell was a great book. Many friends/colleagues picked up Haskell with that book and were really happy with it. @bitemyapp 's book may be better (I don't know, I didn't read it), but he seems to try to bash LYAH at nearly every possible occasion. http://ircbrowse.net/browse/haskell?id=19614985&timestamp=1418037954#t1418037954 http://ircbrowse.net/browse/haskell?id=19614985&timestamp=14... https://lobste.rs/s/5pqc1y/learn_you_a_haskell_for_great_good/comments/gyivtq#c_gyivtq https://lobste.rs/s/5pqc1y/learn_you_a_haskell_for_great_goo... http://bitemyapp.com/posts/2014-12-31-functional-education.html http://bitemyapp.com/posts/2014-12-31-functional-education.h... I think this is undeserved and perhaps toxic (especially coming from someone who wrote a competing work).
        forkerenok 10y ago
        His opinion. But I agree with you that this is undeserved. Perhaps it would sound less toxic/ungrateful if/when he publishes (to free online access) a part of his book that is equivalent to LYAH (in terms of covered material).
  - 998127hbqk 10y ago
    I don't see anything bad in the first link. I've been reading quite a bit about Haskell on the web, and (as you said) I've never encountered anything like the second link. Please also note that 10 years ago flames like that were an art form and no one took them seriously. I'm pretty sure Rob Pike wouldn't. I don't see why everyone who (probably) has been on the web back then and earlier should be sent to a virtual reeducation camp. Either ignore it or laugh about it.
    - the_af 10y ago
      Ah, Tony Morris. I think it's a shame he has such a confrontational and aggressive style, because he makes some very interesting points about Haskell, Scala and FP in general (for example, that types provide more valuable information than variable names). I find he is an outlier in the FP community, though.
eru 10y ago
People at conferences are pretty welcoming. But in other venues you sometimes can get zealotry of the converts. (I myself might have fallen prey to that temptation from time to time.)

by axman6 10y ago

nv-vn 10y ago

For the record, I don't think that the Haskell community is particularly bad. It's just something that I've heard plenty of times from people who have been exposed to the (tiny) bad parts of this community before learning the language that feel unwelcome (think the zealot-y types who reject any discussion as bad if it doesn't involve their favorite language (and this problem isn't unique to Haskell)).

lil1729 10y ago
There are certain people in the community who are very opinionated. Some go one step ahead and abuse others who don't use their favourite language. For instance, see these two posts (comments). [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20150628010942/http://timkellogg.me/blog/2014/01/19/I-get-excited-about-go https://web.archive.org/web/20150628010942/http://timkellogg... [2] http://roseland.io/blog/2014/05/10/number-golang-the-next-great-teaching-language/#comment-1379154769 http://roseland.io/blog/2014/05/10/number-golang-the-next-gr... These comments are unfortunate. These two individuals, in no means represent the entire community. But such people are toxic for an otherwise great bunch of people like SPJ, Phil Wadler and other folks.
- yokohummer7 10y ago
  The problem is that the brand new Haskell Programming book, which seems to be recommended nowadays among Haskellers, is being written by bitemyapp (the one described in the first link). He's been bitching other languages, especially Go. He even stated Haskell is simpler than Go, which just shows his twisted reality. It is very unfortunate that such a toxic person is influential to the community.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    But Haskell is simpler than Go (in a similar way that Lisp is), so that's a poor example of "twisted reality".
  - forkerenok 10y ago
    On the contrary, I think that is a good side of Chris Allen (@bytemyapp), he truly believes that everyone (I'm not even narrowing it down to software engineers) has capability to comprehend the core ideas of Haskell and become as proficient with it as you are with other languages and then delve into more evolved topics when you feel like it. Like a true evangelist. He is frustrated with misrepresentation of Haskell in wider programmers' community and to his credit he is working hard to fix this. (Though his book is quite pricey :) ) I don't really know how much of a Haskell fanatic he is, but one should not turn his back on a person just because he is saying something you disagree with or don't want to hear (like belittling other languages).
    - danieldk 10y ago
      Like a true evangelist. He is frustrated with misrepresentation of Haskell in wider programmers' community and to his credit he is working hard to fix this. Learn yourself a Haskell was a great book. Many friends/colleagues picked up Haskell with that book and were really happy with it. @bitemyapp 's book may be better (I don't know, I didn't read it), but he seems to try to bash LYAH at nearly every possible occasion. http://ircbrowse.net/browse/haskell?id=19614985&timestamp=1418037954#t1418037954 http://ircbrowse.net/browse/haskell?id=19614985&timestamp=14... https://lobste.rs/s/5pqc1y/learn_you_a_haskell_for_great_good/comments/gyivtq#c_gyivtq https://lobste.rs/s/5pqc1y/learn_you_a_haskell_for_great_goo... http://bitemyapp.com/posts/2014-12-31-functional-education.html http://bitemyapp.com/posts/2014-12-31-functional-education.h... I think this is undeserved and perhaps toxic (especially coming from someone who wrote a competing work).
      - forkerenok 10y ago
        His opinion. But I agree with you that this is undeserved. Perhaps it would sound less toxic/ungrateful if/when he publishes (to free online access) a part of his book that is equivalent to LYAH (in terms of covered material).
- 998127hbqk 10y ago
  I don't see anything bad in the first link. I've been reading quite a bit about Haskell on the web, and (as you said) I've never encountered anything like the second link. Please also note that 10 years ago flames like that were an art form and no one took them seriously. I'm pretty sure Rob Pike wouldn't. I don't see why everyone who (probably) has been on the web back then and earlier should be sent to a virtual reeducation camp. Either ignore it or laugh about it.
  - the_af 10y ago
    Ah, Tony Morris. I think it's a shame he has such a confrontational and aggressive style, because he makes some very interesting points about Haskell, Scala and FP in general (for example, that types provide more valuable information than variable names). I find he is an outlier in the FP community, though.

eru 10y ago

People at conferences are pretty welcoming. But in other venues you sometimes can get zealotry of the converts. (I myself might have fallen prey to that temptation from time to time.)