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Computers have uses beyond hacking. Guns are for killing. Killing in self-defense, honing your killing skills as a sport/recreation activity, deterring bad beha

Computers have uses beyond hacking. Guns are for killing. Killing in self-defense, honing your killing skills as a sport/recreation activity, deterring bad behavior by threat of killing, killing things that are socially acceptable to kill (i.e. game animals), sure, but the theme is killing. Lockpicks might be a better example. Many similar arguments apply: their use is to open doors without the correct keys, which only a few specialized professions should have a legitimate need to do. Yet on the other hand we ought to be able to tinker with our private property, evaluate its security (bad guys will get lockpicks anyway), let ourselves in if we get locked out, publish security research on "unpickable" locks and participate in locksport. Or for a more direct computing analogy, Metasploit. It is unambiguously a hacking tool, but it remains legal because bad guys will always get hacking tools, and the good guys need to be able to evaluate their defenses.

tbirdz 10y ago
Don't forget about starter pistols for telling runners when a race starts. Also flare guns for signalling, although that might not count as a "real gun"?
- schismsubv 10y ago
  Flare guns fall under the same air transport rules that full-blown firearms do. They must be transported in a case without ammunition that is locked and openable only by the owner.
wyager 10y ago
Target shooting isn't just practice for killing things. That's as absurd as claiming "racing is just practice for running people over". Target shooting is a sport all on its own, and is probably the single most prevalent application of firearms in the US.
- rimantas 10y ago
  Your analogy is really really bad.
- 8note 10y ago
  when do you run things over when racing?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - mbrameld 10y ago
    You don't. You also don't kill things when you target shoot. You can run over things with a car, or you can race one. You can kill things with a gun, or you can shoot paper targets with one. Get it?
    - TeMPOraL 10y ago
      The analogy is really stretched. The racing sport equivalent to target shooting would be running over paper targets.
      - nv-vn 10y ago
        That's not an analogy, that's trying to directly apply the sport to another device. That would be like saying an analogy to soccer is kicking basketballs into hoops. The most natural thing to do with a car is to drive it and the most natural thing to do with a gun is to fire it. And running over paper targets instead of racing would probably be an improvement in motorsport safety ;)
        8note 10y ago
        the most natural thing to do with a car isn't to run people down though, it's to travel from one place to another. target practice is to racing, as shooting people (or hunting) is to a road trip.
        JoeAltmaier 10y ago
        Appeals to nature are labored. What's the most natural thing to do with a knife then? A plastic bag? It breaks down pretty fast. In the end, a gun propels a lead slug at high speed and good accuracy over a distance of scores of yards.
- superuser2 10y ago
  >Target shooting isn't just practice for killing things. Sure, and locksport isn't just practice for burglary. The point is guns are a lot closer to specific forced-entry tools (lockpicks or Metasploit) than to computers in general.
Shivetya 10y ago
well I am all for keeping them around for the self defense aspect alone though I did for a long time love target shooting; boy it gets expensive fast. The police aren't there to save you, they prevent crime by penalizing it but mostly when it comes to violent crime all they can do is figure out what happened and hope to find the perp
Turing_Machine 10y ago
"Computers have uses beyond hacking. Guns are for killing." There are somewhere around 300 million guns in the United States. There were around 30,000 deaths by firearm (including homicide, suicide, and accidents) in 2013. So... approximately 1 out of every 10,000 guns was used for "killing" in that year. If their only use is "killing", one is forced to conclude that they really aren't very good at it.
- ap22213 10y ago
  That's quite bizarre logic for someone with that handle. Are you really implying that the great majority of guns were not designed for killing?
  - Turing_Machine 10y ago
    I'm not "implying" it, I'm explicitly stating it. If guns are "designed for killing", why is only one out of 10,000 used for that purpose in a typical year? Can you think of another example of a consumer product that's "designed" for a particular purpose that has that low a rate of actual utilization for that purpose? Most successful defensive gun use incidents don't involve anyone even getting shot, much less killed, and that's leaving out all the ones that are simply used for poking holes in pieces of paper.
    - baddox 10y ago
      > Can you think of another example of a consumer product that's "designed" for a particular purpose that has that low a rate of actual utilization for that purpose? I haven't look up the actual usage rates, but I suspect things like smoke alarms, fire extinguishers, air bags, and (emergency) parachutes, are very seldomly used for their intended purpose.
      - Turing_Machine 10y ago
        Smoke detectors, at least, are designed to go off when they detect smoke. Mine goes off several times per year. Does yours not do that? Emergency parachutes aren't consumer products. Air bags aren't either -- they're required by law. It's not a matter of consumer choice. Fire extinguishers, perhaps.

tbirdz 10y ago

Don't forget about starter pistols for telling runners when a race starts. Also flare guns for signalling, although that might not count as a "real gun"?

schismsubv 10y ago
Flare guns fall under the same air transport rules that full-blown firearms do. They must be transported in a case without ammunition that is locked and openable only by the owner.

wyager 10y ago

Target shooting isn't just practice for killing things. That's as absurd as claiming "racing is just practice for running people over". Target shooting is a sport all on its own, and is probably the single most prevalent application of firearms in the US.

rimantas 10y ago
Your analogy is really really bad.
8note 10y ago
when do you run things over when racing?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- mbrameld 10y ago
  You don't. You also don't kill things when you target shoot. You can run over things with a car, or you can race one. You can kill things with a gun, or you can shoot paper targets with one. Get it?
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    The analogy is really stretched. The racing sport equivalent to target shooting would be running over paper targets.
    - nv-vn 10y ago
      That's not an analogy, that's trying to directly apply the sport to another device. That would be like saying an analogy to soccer is kicking basketballs into hoops. The most natural thing to do with a car is to drive it and the most natural thing to do with a gun is to fire it. And running over paper targets instead of racing would probably be an improvement in motorsport safety ;)
      - 8note 10y ago
        the most natural thing to do with a car isn't to run people down though, it's to travel from one place to another. target practice is to racing, as shooting people (or hunting) is to a road trip.
        JoeAltmaier 10y ago
        Appeals to nature are labored. What's the most natural thing to do with a knife then? A plastic bag? It breaks down pretty fast. In the end, a gun propels a lead slug at high speed and good accuracy over a distance of scores of yards.
superuser2 10y ago
>Target shooting isn't just practice for killing things. Sure, and locksport isn't just practice for burglary. The point is guns are a lot closer to specific forced-entry tools (lockpicks or Metasploit) than to computers in general.

Shivetya 10y ago

well I am all for keeping them around for the self defense aspect alone though I did for a long time love target shooting; boy it gets expensive fast. The police aren't there to save you, they prevent crime by penalizing it but mostly when it comes to violent crime all they can do is figure out what happened and hope to find the perp

Turing_Machine 10y ago

"Computers have uses beyond hacking. Guns are for killing." There are somewhere around 300 million guns in the United States. There were around 30,000 deaths by firearm (including homicide, suicide, and accidents) in 2013. So... approximately 1 out of every 10,000 guns was used for "killing" in that year. If their only use is "killing", one is forced to conclude that they really aren't very good at it.

ap22213 10y ago
That's quite bizarre logic for someone with that handle. Are you really implying that the great majority of guns were not designed for killing?
- Turing_Machine 10y ago
  I'm not "implying" it, I'm explicitly stating it. If guns are "designed for killing", why is only one out of 10,000 used for that purpose in a typical year? Can you think of another example of a consumer product that's "designed" for a particular purpose that has that low a rate of actual utilization for that purpose? Most successful defensive gun use incidents don't involve anyone even getting shot, much less killed, and that's leaving out all the ones that are simply used for poking holes in pieces of paper.
  - baddox 10y ago
    > Can you think of another example of a consumer product that's "designed" for a particular purpose that has that low a rate of actual utilization for that purpose? I haven't look up the actual usage rates, but I suspect things like smoke alarms, fire extinguishers, air bags, and (emergency) parachutes, are very seldomly used for their intended purpose.
    - Turing_Machine 10y ago
      Smoke detectors, at least, are designed to go off when they detect smoke. Mine goes off several times per year. Does yours not do that? Emergency parachutes aren't consumer products. Air bags aren't either -- they're required by law. It's not a matter of consumer choice. Fire extinguishers, perhaps.