3 ms·

Let me decide it. If I don't want to use it, I should be able to swap it out. I shouldn't have to patch Gnome, udev, and whatnot to not use systemd. I don't

by gkya 11y ago

Let me decide it. If I don't want to use it, I should be able to swap it out. I shouldn't have to patch Gnome, udev, and whatnot to not use systemd. I don't have problems with systemd, what I feat is essential parts of GNU and Linux infrastructure becoming directly dependent on it, at the actual software level.

chris_wot 11y ago
Have you considered using Knoppix? Or now Devuan? Because you don't have to use systemd...
- gkya 11y ago
  Heck. I have to mount my USB sticks. I have to run some Gnome apps. What part of that you don't understand? I don't want to have to load my drivers manually just because I don't want to use systemd. Udev is the thing that probes devices at boot time, isn't it? I don't want to fork Emacs, on which my life depends, because dbus becomes a hard dependency, which becomes coupled to systemd. Are you paid to not understand? At the end of the day, I've left GNU/Linux behind anyways, I'm not talking for myself but for the community.
  - chris_wot 11y ago
    Why would you need to do that? A change to the init system isn't going to break that. Are you actually using a system that has switched back to SysV scripts?!?
  - wila 11y ago
    Avoiding the systemd thing here too, bsd for the win. Plenty has been said about it and some will never understand what is wrong with it.
    - gkya 11y ago
      Would you mind downvoting this chris_wot's comments on this thread? I can't because they're replies to me. He's basically spamming, asking for info given in the toplevel post. IDK if such request complies with HN Guidelines but I can't be bothered to collect whatever amount of karma needed to flag/downvote a spammer, sorry. Edit: I can't down vote him because the blinking arrow does not appear on replies to me (I have 990 karma, maybe not enough) or else I'd do it myself.
      - chris_wot 11y ago
        Do what you will in terms of voting. I don't enjoy being downvoted, and sometimes I even get upset by it, but there are many views on votes and people must use their best judgement so I respect it if they feel it is a fair judgement. I appear to have upset you, and I recognise that I may have been too forceful on this subject. In my defence, I've had some very informative but uncompromising arguments on this matter with vezzny-ford and I have come out far more informed and enlightened as a result. I assumed this was the case here also - I've tried to stick to the technology itself, and don't have any ill will towards you as a person but I can understand if my manner may have given that impression. So I do apologise for anything I have said or done to make you upset with me. In terms of the substance of your comment, you said that you would need to patch udev if you swap out systemd with System V init - but this isn't the case. In a previous comment on another article, you said Gentoo patched udev which seems to have been the basis for your claim. If that's not the case, then I have probably not understood your reasoning. However, if this is the basis for your assumption then I think it's worthwhile pointing out that Gentoo say they forked udev "to avoid glibc-specific functions and gcc-specific constructs by sticking to C99 while tracking closely the systemd-udev development". [1] 1. https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Eudev https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Eudev
        wila 11y ago
        > been too forceful on this subject I also read your replies in the post about devuan. Had the feeling half the posts where yours :) so you are a tad bit evangelic on the subject. The thing is that devuan is about a debian without systemd and there you came out defending systemd. Not exactly the best spot to do so, I'd say. If anything, then devuan points out how difficult it was to get a current version of debian "systemd free" in this day and age. Systemd made me look at BSD again, so quite happy with systemd, but for other reasons as you.
bkor 11y ago
It's way easier to depend on some functionality provided within the systemd project. Various bits do NOT require systemd to be the init system. The conflict here is pretty easy: * People not wanting to avoid anything from systemd project * Maintainers simplifying their project by relying on an API The API they're relying on is not init system specific, but because it is provided by the systemd project, there's non-technical hate against the decision. Outcome: maintainers ignore those people as they're irrational.

by gkya 11y ago

chris_wot 11y ago

Have you considered using Knoppix? Or now Devuan? Because you don't have to use systemd...

gkya 11y ago
Heck. I have to mount my USB sticks. I have to run some Gnome apps. What part of that you don't understand? I don't want to have to load my drivers manually just because I don't want to use systemd. Udev is the thing that probes devices at boot time, isn't it? I don't want to fork Emacs, on which my life depends, because dbus becomes a hard dependency, which becomes coupled to systemd. Are you paid to not understand? At the end of the day, I've left GNU/Linux behind anyways, I'm not talking for myself but for the community.
- chris_wot 11y ago
  Why would you need to do that? A change to the init system isn't going to break that. Are you actually using a system that has switched back to SysV scripts?!?
- wila 11y ago
  Avoiding the systemd thing here too, bsd for the win. Plenty has been said about it and some will never understand what is wrong with it.
  - gkya 11y ago
    Would you mind downvoting this chris_wot's comments on this thread? I can't because they're replies to me. He's basically spamming, asking for info given in the toplevel post. IDK if such request complies with HN Guidelines but I can't be bothered to collect whatever amount of karma needed to flag/downvote a spammer, sorry. Edit: I can't down vote him because the blinking arrow does not appear on replies to me (I have 990 karma, maybe not enough) or else I'd do it myself.
    - chris_wot 11y ago
      Do what you will in terms of voting. I don't enjoy being downvoted, and sometimes I even get upset by it, but there are many views on votes and people must use their best judgement so I respect it if they feel it is a fair judgement. I appear to have upset you, and I recognise that I may have been too forceful on this subject. In my defence, I've had some very informative but uncompromising arguments on this matter with vezzny-ford and I have come out far more informed and enlightened as a result. I assumed this was the case here also - I've tried to stick to the technology itself, and don't have any ill will towards you as a person but I can understand if my manner may have given that impression. So I do apologise for anything I have said or done to make you upset with me. In terms of the substance of your comment, you said that you would need to patch udev if you swap out systemd with System V init - but this isn't the case. In a previous comment on another article, you said Gentoo patched udev which seems to have been the basis for your claim. If that's not the case, then I have probably not understood your reasoning. However, if this is the basis for your assumption then I think it's worthwhile pointing out that Gentoo say they forked udev "to avoid glibc-specific functions and gcc-specific constructs by sticking to C99 while tracking closely the systemd-udev development". [1] 1. https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Eudev https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Eudev
      - wila 11y ago
        > been too forceful on this subject I also read your replies in the post about devuan. Had the feeling half the posts where yours :) so you are a tad bit evangelic on the subject. The thing is that devuan is about a debian without systemd and there you came out defending systemd. Not exactly the best spot to do so, I'd say. If anything, then devuan points out how difficult it was to get a current version of debian "systemd free" in this day and age. Systemd made me look at BSD again, so quite happy with systemd, but for other reasons as you.

bkor 11y ago

It's way easier to depend on some functionality provided within the systemd project. Various bits do NOT require systemd to be the init system. The conflict here is pretty easy: * People not wanting to avoid anything from systemd project * Maintainers simplifying their project by relying on an API The API they're relying on is not init system specific, but because it is provided by the systemd project, there's non-technical hate against the decision. Outcome: maintainers ignore those people as they're irrational.