5 ms·

I stopped having to carry daily around the time that serpa holsters got popular. All the combat vets accurately predicted that the release mechanism would lead

by woodman 10y ago

I stopped having to carry daily around the time that serpa holsters got popular. All the combat vets accurately predicted that the release mechanism would lead to a lot of negligent discharges - many training courses wouldn't let you on the range with one. I'm surprised to see that they are still being sold, I'd have thought they went the way of the lawn dart.

hga 10y ago
The Serpa holster is by no means the only retention holster out there! Nor would have one stopped the Boston bombers from what I understand of them, it's hard to expresses just how bad an idea they are in every way. For those who don't know, you have to press a button about over where the trigger is, inside the holster. If you keep pressing into your draw, you may as many have found out continue and press the trigger while it's pointed in a unfortunate direction.
- woodman 10y ago
  I'm going to have to disagree with you, I think thumb break retention holsters (that have been the standard forever) are just fine. The usability problem for holsters comes from the loss of fine motor control following an adrenaline dump, you go all thumbs. Of course nothing beats boring old training - where even very complex behavior can be ingrained. I blacked out my first fire fight, but I was later told that I effectively performed three magazine changes, manipulated the radio, called in a SALUTE and fired a signal flare. I'm confident that if I spent several years training to not shoot myself in the leg with a serpa holster, I could, but it would be a waste of time as better holsters long predate that silly design.
  - hga 10y ago
    I'm actually not sure we're disagreeing, but I'll defer to you, seeing as how I've avoided firefights up to now, and probably will in the future, and carry concealed with a Summer Special, friction the only retention besides, of course, having it covered. Ah, also a Safepacker in winter weather, which is not even clearly a hostler: http://www.thewilderness.com/safepacker-concealment-holster/ http://www.thewilderness.com/safepacker-concealment-holster/
    - woodman 10y ago
      Oh yeah, we are talking about different use cases. I'd never advocate anything that would make an IWB draw any slower than it already is :) For the more block inclined, MIC trigger guards are nice for winter jackets.
      - hga 10y ago
        I worship at the alter of John Moses Browning, so no MIC holsters for me any time soon.... But I have many many others to choose from, they've been insanely, amazingly even for me popular with civilians for a long time. And, yeah, slow is a good word to use there ^_^. (#1 one overriding reason is that since I was a teen the M1911 fits my hand like a glove, and I can shoot it very well. And 8 round magazines weren't a big forfeit when I started buying handguns after leaving Massachusetts and the Federal AW ban was in effect.)
        woodman 10y ago
        For a long time I felt the exact same way (also big mitted), but I got challenged to leave the Springfield at home and use a borrowed G17 for a week long course. I still prefer the M1911 for sport, and satisfying my need to constantly tinker (yes my feedramp is polished and ejection port flared). But if I were pressed - I'd begrudgingly go with the utilitarian choice offered by Glock. But everybody has their reasons for developing preferences in their tools: I will give up my modal text editor when they peel my cold dead fingers from around it.
        hga 10y ago
        And I'll give up my non-modal EMACS when.... Although the grip angle of Glocks is just plain wrong for me, I've read that I ought to try the Springfield XD if I wanted to go in that direction. Which I don't, for concealed carry I believe an external hammer is essential for holstering safety (put your thumb on it and either stop the drop if SA or feel it rising if SA/DA or DAO). And, yeah, given that I can shoot most guns well/very well (a couple of years of JROTC rifle team with Winchester 52s, after informal starting in 1st grade or so, made a big difference, but don't ask me to wingshoot), yeah, I should give something different a serious try just to see. I'll put it on my list.
- tbyehl 10y ago
  If you keep pressing into your draw, WITH YOUR FINGERTIP. That's not how the release button is intended to be used. When someone NDs with a non-Serpa nobody blames the holster -- they blame the idiot user for doing it wrong. The Serpa has a secondary retention feature -- the button is blocked when there's upward pressure on the gun. It is not easy to snatch a gun out of a Serpa.
  - woodman 10y ago
    > That's not how the release button is intended to be used. Stress does funny things, also "Just avoid holding it that way" isn't good advice for things like guns. > ...with a non-Serpa nobody blames the holster... That is the point. Normally the user would be blamed, but the design is bad enough that the equipment is being blamed, IDPA even banned it.
    - tbyehl 10y ago
      But "Avoid jamming your finger in the trigger area" is very solid advice for guns. That has got to be the leading cause of NDs while drawing a firearm but someone does it with a Serpa and everyone is blaming the holster. Had my Serpa for years and it never even occurred to me to jab my fingertip at the button until Grebner's video. IDPA never banned the Serpa. Some ranges / organizers have.
      - woodman 10y ago
        The problem isn't the advice, it is the reliance on the advice being followed without fail for a product that leaves very little safety margin in normal operation. It is like putting a factory reset button right next to the power button and expecting that the instruction to never accidentally press the reset button provides sufficient safety. Do you make the same allowance for guns that discharge when dropped? Surely the users know to not drop their guns, and yet recalls still happen. Foolproofing can look really silly when everybody is well rested and calm, but you might be grateful for the raised "Front Toward Enemy" when things get hairy. You are correct about the IDPA ban, my mistake. It makes me wonder though, I can't think of a similar case of a safety rule being so charged. Green tip 5.56 is the closest thing that comes to mind, but that is more to do with property damage than safety.

by woodman 10y ago

hga 10y ago

The Serpa holster is by no means the only retention holster out there! Nor would have one stopped the Boston bombers from what I understand of them, it's hard to expresses just how bad an idea they are in every way. For those who don't know, you have to press a button about over where the trigger is, inside the holster. If you keep pressing into your draw, you may as many have found out continue and press the trigger while it's pointed in a unfortunate direction.

woodman 10y ago
I'm going to have to disagree with you, I think thumb break retention holsters (that have been the standard forever) are just fine. The usability problem for holsters comes from the loss of fine motor control following an adrenaline dump, you go all thumbs. Of course nothing beats boring old training - where even very complex behavior can be ingrained. I blacked out my first fire fight, but I was later told that I effectively performed three magazine changes, manipulated the radio, called in a SALUTE and fired a signal flare. I'm confident that if I spent several years training to not shoot myself in the leg with a serpa holster, I could, but it would be a waste of time as better holsters long predate that silly design.
- hga 10y ago
  I'm actually not sure we're disagreeing, but I'll defer to you, seeing as how I've avoided firefights up to now, and probably will in the future, and carry concealed with a Summer Special, friction the only retention besides, of course, having it covered. Ah, also a Safepacker in winter weather, which is not even clearly a hostler: http://www.thewilderness.com/safepacker-concealment-holster/ http://www.thewilderness.com/safepacker-concealment-holster/
  - woodman 10y ago
    Oh yeah, we are talking about different use cases. I'd never advocate anything that would make an IWB draw any slower than it already is :) For the more block inclined, MIC trigger guards are nice for winter jackets.
    - hga 10y ago
      I worship at the alter of John Moses Browning, so no MIC holsters for me any time soon.... But I have many many others to choose from, they've been insanely, amazingly even for me popular with civilians for a long time. And, yeah, slow is a good word to use there ^_^. (#1 one overriding reason is that since I was a teen the M1911 fits my hand like a glove, and I can shoot it very well. And 8 round magazines weren't a big forfeit when I started buying handguns after leaving Massachusetts and the Federal AW ban was in effect.)
      - woodman 10y ago
        For a long time I felt the exact same way (also big mitted), but I got challenged to leave the Springfield at home and use a borrowed G17 for a week long course. I still prefer the M1911 for sport, and satisfying my need to constantly tinker (yes my feedramp is polished and ejection port flared). But if I were pressed - I'd begrudgingly go with the utilitarian choice offered by Glock. But everybody has their reasons for developing preferences in their tools: I will give up my modal text editor when they peel my cold dead fingers from around it.
        hga 10y ago
        And I'll give up my non-modal EMACS when.... Although the grip angle of Glocks is just plain wrong for me, I've read that I ought to try the Springfield XD if I wanted to go in that direction. Which I don't, for concealed carry I believe an external hammer is essential for holstering safety (put your thumb on it and either stop the drop if SA or feel it rising if SA/DA or DAO). And, yeah, given that I can shoot most guns well/very well (a couple of years of JROTC rifle team with Winchester 52s, after informal starting in 1st grade or so, made a big difference, but don't ask me to wingshoot), yeah, I should give something different a serious try just to see. I'll put it on my list.
tbyehl 10y ago
If you keep pressing into your draw, WITH YOUR FINGERTIP. That's not how the release button is intended to be used. When someone NDs with a non-Serpa nobody blames the holster -- they blame the idiot user for doing it wrong. The Serpa has a secondary retention feature -- the button is blocked when there's upward pressure on the gun. It is not easy to snatch a gun out of a Serpa.
- woodman 10y ago
  > That's not how the release button is intended to be used. Stress does funny things, also "Just avoid holding it that way" isn't good advice for things like guns. > ...with a non-Serpa nobody blames the holster... That is the point. Normally the user would be blamed, but the design is bad enough that the equipment is being blamed, IDPA even banned it.
  - tbyehl 10y ago
    But "Avoid jamming your finger in the trigger area" is very solid advice for guns. That has got to be the leading cause of NDs while drawing a firearm but someone does it with a Serpa and everyone is blaming the holster. Had my Serpa for years and it never even occurred to me to jab my fingertip at the button until Grebner's video. IDPA never banned the Serpa. Some ranges / organizers have.
    - woodman 10y ago
      The problem isn't the advice, it is the reliance on the advice being followed without fail for a product that leaves very little safety margin in normal operation. It is like putting a factory reset button right next to the power button and expecting that the instruction to never accidentally press the reset button provides sufficient safety. Do you make the same allowance for guns that discharge when dropped? Surely the users know to not drop their guns, and yet recalls still happen. Foolproofing can look really silly when everybody is well rested and calm, but you might be grateful for the raised "Front Toward Enemy" when things get hairy. You are correct about the IDPA ban, my mistake. It makes me wonder though, I can't think of a similar case of a safety rule being so charged. Green tip 5.56 is the closest thing that comes to mind, but that is more to do with property damage than safety.