4 ms·

Udev (AFAIK a program that recognises and mounts plug-in devices, but I'm not sure) is developped by systemd guys and they recently told that they won't care ab

by gkya 11y ago

Udev (AFAIK a program that recognises and mounts plug-in devices, but I'm not sure) is developped by systemd guys and they recently told that they won't care about the case where it is used w/o systemd. It is an important part of GNU/Linux distros. Tho I used Arch for about two-three years I guess (since just before it switched to systemd as default til two monts ago), and I never had to fiddle with it, so I don't know how it affects people. Gentoo forked it to maintain a version that did not depend on systemd.

chris_wot 11y ago
Yeah, that's precisely what it does - it's a daemon that interacts with the kernel for hotplug devices, etc. Is udevd used by anything other than the kernel though? If not, then I don't think it's a huge issue if those who want to use a different init system maintain their own version!
- gkya 11y ago
  Why waste all that effort of maintaining forks when it can be avoided? Systemd folks are being hostile to the wider community of Linux users with that.
  - chris_wot 11y ago
    You don't need to - there shouldn't be anything that stops other init systems from using it.
    - gkya 11y ago
      But there is, and that's why people forked it. https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Eudev https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Eudev
      - chris_wot 11y ago
        Uh, that wasn't forked because udev can't work, it was forked because it fit the needs of Gentoo... Have a look at Devuan, I think you'll find that they use the same udev as Ubuntu and Debian. It's not hostile if someone forks a project to meet their requirements but the old software is used by everyone else!
        chris_wot 11y ago
        Can the person down voting please explain why? I'm going to assume you believe I've been factually inaccurate. If that's the case, I don't mind the downvotes as much as you not explaining where I'm wrong or making any attempt to engage in discourse. If I'm not wrong, then perhaps you should reconsider your actions, because I'll still say what I believe even though you may not like it, karma be damned!
        JdeBP 11y ago
        > Have a look at Devuan, I think you'll find that they use the same udev as Ubuntu and Debian. Yes, in amongst all of this systemd discussion, please do look at the notional actual topic of this page. And discover vdev. It's explicitly mentioned in the release notes. * https://github.com/jcnelson/vdev https://github.com/jcnelson/vdev * http://judecnelson.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/introducing-vdev.html http://judecnelson.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/introducing-vdev.h... * http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/debian-26/devuan-4175540922/#post5354824 http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/debian-26/devuan-417...
        chris_wot 11y ago
        Ah! Thanks - I didn't see this! Appreciate the info :-)
        chris_wot 11y ago
        Interesting - so vdev might be ported to OpenBSD! That's pretty awesome :-)
    - chronid 11y ago
      The people currently mantaining udev do not want them to. > Unless the systemd-haters prepare another kdbus userspace until then this will effectively also mean that we will not support non-systemd systems with udev anymore starting at that point. Gentoo folks, this is your wakeup call. https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-May/019657.html https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-Ma...
- makomk 11y ago
  udevd is used by everything, sometimes directly, other times indirectly. It's needed to create device nodes for everything from audio devices to webcams to storage devices to stuff like modems and terminals, graphics cards, etc. Most desktop environments call it directly for stuff like USB drive automounting. Some non-desktop systems like Android and OpenWRT with very constrained hardware have their own replacements for it, but that's not officially supported by the kernel developers and the kernel APIs it relies on aren't documented or guaranteed to remain stable - they want you to use udev (and soon that'll mean systemd too). Basically, the only people who've managed to get away with not using udev are those with their own kernel fork and a completely customised stack on top. I'm not sure if any of them even use glibc or the GNU userland either.
  - digi_owl 11y ago
    The basic problem is that the same people that maintain udev also maintain the kernel API it relies on. How Torvalds have allowed this to continue for so long i do not know. Never mind that udev existed as a independent project for nearly a decade before being folded into systemd, thus leaving various distros high and dry. Either adopt systemd, or develop an alternative to udev (that still have to rely on the badly documented and changing kernel API). http://www.landley.net/notes-2015.html#05-07-2015 http://www.landley.net/notes-2015.html#05-07-2015 At this point in time it seems that GregKH has mastered the art of passive-aggressiveness...

by gkya 11y ago

chris_wot 11y ago

Yeah, that's precisely what it does - it's a daemon that interacts with the kernel for hotplug devices, etc. Is udevd used by anything other than the kernel though? If not, then I don't think it's a huge issue if those who want to use a different init system maintain their own version!

gkya 11y ago
Why waste all that effort of maintaining forks when it can be avoided? Systemd folks are being hostile to the wider community of Linux users with that.
- chris_wot 11y ago
  You don't need to - there shouldn't be anything that stops other init systems from using it.
  - gkya 11y ago
    But there is, and that's why people forked it. https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Eudev https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Eudev
    - chris_wot 11y ago
      Uh, that wasn't forked because udev can't work, it was forked because it fit the needs of Gentoo... Have a look at Devuan, I think you'll find that they use the same udev as Ubuntu and Debian. It's not hostile if someone forks a project to meet their requirements but the old software is used by everyone else!
      - chris_wot 11y ago
        Can the person down voting please explain why? I'm going to assume you believe I've been factually inaccurate. If that's the case, I don't mind the downvotes as much as you not explaining where I'm wrong or making any attempt to engage in discourse. If I'm not wrong, then perhaps you should reconsider your actions, because I'll still say what I believe even though you may not like it, karma be damned!
      - JdeBP 11y ago
        > Have a look at Devuan, I think you'll find that they use the same udev as Ubuntu and Debian. Yes, in amongst all of this systemd discussion, please do look at the notional actual topic of this page. And discover vdev. It's explicitly mentioned in the release notes. * https://github.com/jcnelson/vdev https://github.com/jcnelson/vdev * http://judecnelson.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/introducing-vdev.html http://judecnelson.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/introducing-vdev.h... * http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/debian-26/devuan-4175540922/#post5354824 http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/debian-26/devuan-417...
        chris_wot 11y ago
        Ah! Thanks - I didn't see this! Appreciate the info :-)
        chris_wot 11y ago
        Interesting - so vdev might be ported to OpenBSD! That's pretty awesome :-)
  - chronid 11y ago
    The people currently mantaining udev do not want them to. > Unless the systemd-haters prepare another kdbus userspace until then this will effectively also mean that we will not support non-systemd systems with udev anymore starting at that point. Gentoo folks, this is your wakeup call. https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-May/019657.html https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-Ma...
makomk 11y ago
udevd is used by everything, sometimes directly, other times indirectly. It's needed to create device nodes for everything from audio devices to webcams to storage devices to stuff like modems and terminals, graphics cards, etc. Most desktop environments call it directly for stuff like USB drive automounting. Some non-desktop systems like Android and OpenWRT with very constrained hardware have their own replacements for it, but that's not officially supported by the kernel developers and the kernel APIs it relies on aren't documented or guaranteed to remain stable - they want you to use udev (and soon that'll mean systemd too). Basically, the only people who've managed to get away with not using udev are those with their own kernel fork and a completely customised stack on top. I'm not sure if any of them even use glibc or the GNU userland either.
- digi_owl 11y ago
  The basic problem is that the same people that maintain udev also maintain the kernel API it relies on. How Torvalds have allowed this to continue for so long i do not know. Never mind that udev existed as a independent project for nearly a decade before being folded into systemd, thus leaving various distros high and dry. Either adopt systemd, or develop an alternative to udev (that still have to rely on the badly documented and changing kernel API). http://www.landley.net/notes-2015.html#05-07-2015 http://www.landley.net/notes-2015.html#05-07-2015 At this point in time it seems that GregKH has mastered the art of passive-aggressiveness...