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Part of the push for smart guns for law enforcement would come from law enforcement's negligent inability to keep track of their own weapons. A local news chann

by curun1r 11y ago

Part of the push for smart guns for law enforcement would come from law enforcement's negligent inability to keep track of their own weapons. A local news channel covered the story of one Bay Area city's police department releasing a report on an inventory of the weapons used by police officers. They were literally missing hundreds of them. Often, the weapon would be lost when an officer left it in an unlocked car, either a police car or their own and the thief simply opened the door/trunk and took it.

hga 11y ago
I suppose so, but it's not like that would make any difference in the number of illicit guns on the street, and I've never heard of smart guns being designed for that much harder use case, where an adversary had lots of time to modify them. The most common one is limiting who can fire it, e.g. preventing the all too common tragedy when a criminal snatches a cop's gun and kills him with it.
- woodman 11y ago
  > all too common tragedy Any murder is too much murder, but I certainly wouldn't describe it as common. Cops are nearly as likely to die of a car accident as they are of getting shot. A cop friend of mine was going on about how the recent media focus on them has made things so dangerous - officer murders were up by 15%! I asked him if that translated to an increase of 5 or 6 a year, and if that was actually above the noise floor - he responded with a blank stare - "15%."
  - hga 11y ago
    Well, you're got a point, especially with modern retention holsters, but it's still a major issue, and those holsters also slow down the draw speed of officers (but one defeated the Boston bombers' after they murdered the MIT Campus Policeman, that murder was for naught).
    - woodman 11y ago
      I stopped having to carry daily around the time that serpa holsters got popular. All the combat vets accurately predicted that the release mechanism would lead to a lot of negligent discharges - many training courses wouldn't let you on the range with one. I'm surprised to see that they are still being sold, I'd have thought they went the way of the lawn dart.
      - hga 11y ago
        The Serpa holster is by no means the only retention holster out there! Nor would have one stopped the Boston bombers from what I understand of them, it's hard to expresses just how bad an idea they are in every way. For those who don't know, you have to press a button about over where the trigger is, inside the holster. If you keep pressing into your draw, you may as many have found out continue and press the trigger while it's pointed in a unfortunate direction.
        woodman 11y ago
        I'm going to have to disagree with you, I think thumb break retention holsters (that have been the standard forever) are just fine. The usability problem for holsters comes from the loss of fine motor control following an adrenaline dump, you go all thumbs. Of course nothing beats boring old training - where even very complex behavior can be ingrained. I blacked out my first fire fight, but I was later told that I effectively performed three magazine changes, manipulated the radio, called in a SALUTE and fired a signal flare. I'm confident that if I spent several years training to not shoot myself in the leg with a serpa holster, I could, but it would be a waste of time as better holsters long predate that silly design.
        hga 11y ago
        I'm actually not sure we're disagreeing, but I'll defer to you, seeing as how I've avoided firefights up to now, and probably will in the future, and carry concealed with a Summer Special, friction the only retention besides, of course, having it covered. Ah, also a Safepacker in winter weather, which is not even clearly a hostler: http://www.thewilderness.com/safepacker-concealment-holster/ http://www.thewilderness.com/safepacker-concealment-holster/
  - philh 11y ago
    > Cops are nearly as likely to die of a car accident as they are of getting shot. Unless cops die of car accidents significantly less than the base rate, that is not reassuring.
    - woodman 11y ago
      I'm not sure what you'd expect to be reassured of, that cops are less likely to die of car accidents and gunshots than the average person? My point isn't that they have no increased risk, my point is that the level of risk in reality isn't nearly as high as people seem to think - and warrants no special deference. Law enforcement isn't even in the top 10 dangerous professions, they fall well behind loggers, garbage men, truck drivers, roofers... have you thanked your garbage man for risking his life to collect your refuse today?
      - philh 11y ago
        I don't have any particular preconceptions about how dangerous it is to be a cop. But I do know that car accidents are one of the most common ways to die. So when you tell me that cops are more likely to get shot than to die in a car accident, my perception of the danger goes up.
        woodman 11y ago
        I used the word "nearly" for a reason, the numbers are very close and the method of categorization is not known to me (folks like to lump suicide with homicide when it furthers their argument). So "more" isn't an order of magnitude and the absolute number is so low that a use of it in justification for any endeavor would be a disguised appeal to emotion.
- Vexs 11y ago
  I never really thought about that aspect- smart guns only really prevent someone from picking up your gun and shooting you with it. I mean that's basically it, it's safety for the gun owner and nobody else.
jboggan 11y ago
I used to shoot at an indoor range north of Atlanta. Once a sheepish customer came in asking the clerks what they knew about the rifle laying in the parking lot. Apparently the federal agent who had just left the range with his issued M4-style automatic carbine leaned it against his car while loading up his range bag. Then he forgot about it and drove off. I hated shooting next to law enforcement in general, they were bad shots and had poor gun handling skills. I think because they were paid to carry guns they thought they were "professionals" and didn't put the same effort into training and cultivating a mindfulness around firearms.
- cortesoft 11y ago
  It makes sense... People who are into something for fun are more likely to out effor into getting good at that thing. Only some of the law enforcement community are also into guns for fun, whereas all of the people who are shooting at a gun range who AREN'T law enforcement are there for fun.
  - Frompo 11y ago
    Indeed, another example of this is how NBA basketball players are worse than all the amateurs on the streets! And lets not forget how the cousin of your boss that enthusiastically read some tutorials on the net is a much better programmer than you. Or maybe the argument magically only applies in the realm of gun use?
    - hga 11y ago
      Police very seldom, and sometimes never have to use their guns, except maybe to threaten. They're paid to keep the peace and all that, the gun is merely one of many tools, although the one that all others ultimately rest on.
    - TeMPOraL 11y ago
      > Indeed, another example of this is how NBA basketball players are worse than all the amateurs on the streets! Hours of training are hours of training. The GP argued that "People who are into something for fun are more likely to out effor into getting good at that thing." (emphasis mine). > And lets not forget how the cousin of your boss that enthusiastically read some tutorials on the net is a much better programmer than you. If you're in it just for the money then quite possibly. I can quite easily tell for whom programming is not just a job but also a hobby, and for whom it's just a way to make a living - coding skills tend to be much stronger in former.

by curun1r 11y ago

hga 11y ago

I suppose so, but it's not like that would make any difference in the number of illicit guns on the street, and I've never heard of smart guns being designed for that much harder use case, where an adversary had lots of time to modify them. The most common one is limiting who can fire it, e.g. preventing the all too common tragedy when a criminal snatches a cop's gun and kills him with it.

woodman 11y ago
> all too common tragedy Any murder is too much murder, but I certainly wouldn't describe it as common. Cops are nearly as likely to die of a car accident as they are of getting shot. A cop friend of mine was going on about how the recent media focus on them has made things so dangerous - officer murders were up by 15%! I asked him if that translated to an increase of 5 or 6 a year, and if that was actually above the noise floor - he responded with a blank stare - "15%."
- hga 11y ago
  Well, you're got a point, especially with modern retention holsters, but it's still a major issue, and those holsters also slow down the draw speed of officers (but one defeated the Boston bombers' after they murdered the MIT Campus Policeman, that murder was for naught).
  - woodman 11y ago
    I stopped having to carry daily around the time that serpa holsters got popular. All the combat vets accurately predicted that the release mechanism would lead to a lot of negligent discharges - many training courses wouldn't let you on the range with one. I'm surprised to see that they are still being sold, I'd have thought they went the way of the lawn dart.
    - hga 11y ago
      The Serpa holster is by no means the only retention holster out there! Nor would have one stopped the Boston bombers from what I understand of them, it's hard to expresses just how bad an idea they are in every way. For those who don't know, you have to press a button about over where the trigger is, inside the holster. If you keep pressing into your draw, you may as many have found out continue and press the trigger while it's pointed in a unfortunate direction.
      - woodman 11y ago
        I'm going to have to disagree with you, I think thumb break retention holsters (that have been the standard forever) are just fine. The usability problem for holsters comes from the loss of fine motor control following an adrenaline dump, you go all thumbs. Of course nothing beats boring old training - where even very complex behavior can be ingrained. I blacked out my first fire fight, but I was later told that I effectively performed three magazine changes, manipulated the radio, called in a SALUTE and fired a signal flare. I'm confident that if I spent several years training to not shoot myself in the leg with a serpa holster, I could, but it would be a waste of time as better holsters long predate that silly design.
        hga 11y ago
        I'm actually not sure we're disagreeing, but I'll defer to you, seeing as how I've avoided firefights up to now, and probably will in the future, and carry concealed with a Summer Special, friction the only retention besides, of course, having it covered. Ah, also a Safepacker in winter weather, which is not even clearly a hostler: http://www.thewilderness.com/safepacker-concealment-holster/ http://www.thewilderness.com/safepacker-concealment-holster/
- philh 11y ago
  > Cops are nearly as likely to die of a car accident as they are of getting shot. Unless cops die of car accidents significantly less than the base rate, that is not reassuring.
  - woodman 11y ago
    I'm not sure what you'd expect to be reassured of, that cops are less likely to die of car accidents and gunshots than the average person? My point isn't that they have no increased risk, my point is that the level of risk in reality isn't nearly as high as people seem to think - and warrants no special deference. Law enforcement isn't even in the top 10 dangerous professions, they fall well behind loggers, garbage men, truck drivers, roofers... have you thanked your garbage man for risking his life to collect your refuse today?
    - philh 11y ago
      I don't have any particular preconceptions about how dangerous it is to be a cop. But I do know that car accidents are one of the most common ways to die. So when you tell me that cops are more likely to get shot than to die in a car accident, my perception of the danger goes up.
      - woodman 11y ago
        I used the word "nearly" for a reason, the numbers are very close and the method of categorization is not known to me (folks like to lump suicide with homicide when it furthers their argument). So "more" isn't an order of magnitude and the absolute number is so low that a use of it in justification for any endeavor would be a disguised appeal to emotion.
Vexs 11y ago
I never really thought about that aspect- smart guns only really prevent someone from picking up your gun and shooting you with it. I mean that's basically it, it's safety for the gun owner and nobody else.

jboggan 11y ago

I used to shoot at an indoor range north of Atlanta. Once a sheepish customer came in asking the clerks what they knew about the rifle laying in the parking lot. Apparently the federal agent who had just left the range with his issued M4-style automatic carbine leaned it against his car while loading up his range bag. Then he forgot about it and drove off. I hated shooting next to law enforcement in general, they were bad shots and had poor gun handling skills. I think because they were paid to carry guns they thought they were "professionals" and didn't put the same effort into training and cultivating a mindfulness around firearms.

cortesoft 11y ago
It makes sense... People who are into something for fun are more likely to out effor into getting good at that thing. Only some of the law enforcement community are also into guns for fun, whereas all of the people who are shooting at a gun range who AREN'T law enforcement are there for fun.
- Frompo 11y ago
  Indeed, another example of this is how NBA basketball players are worse than all the amateurs on the streets! And lets not forget how the cousin of your boss that enthusiastically read some tutorials on the net is a much better programmer than you. Or maybe the argument magically only applies in the realm of gun use?
  - hga 11y ago
    Police very seldom, and sometimes never have to use their guns, except maybe to threaten. They're paid to keep the peace and all that, the gun is merely one of many tools, although the one that all others ultimately rest on.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    > Indeed, another example of this is how NBA basketball players are worse than all the amateurs on the streets! Hours of training are hours of training. The GP argued that "People who are into something for fun are more likely to out effor into getting good at that thing." (emphasis mine). > And lets not forget how the cousin of your boss that enthusiastically read some tutorials on the net is a much better programmer than you. If you're in it just for the money then quite possibly. I can quite easily tell for whom programming is not just a job but also a hobby, and for whom it's just a way to make a living - coding skills tend to be much stronger in former.