4 ms·

"Systemd" isn't really a single program, it's a collection of 69 binaries, that together handle a number of functions that were traditionally handled by separat

"Systemd" isn't really a single program, it's a collection of 69 binaries, that together handle a number of functions that were traditionally handled by separately-developed pieces of software. It handles init, user logins, the console, system event logging, network interface configuration, time+date settings, and device management (udev was merged into Systemd in 2012, apparently). A lot of those components have interdependencies (so they can't all be replaced piecemeal), and some userspace things like Gnome have come to have dependencies on things provided by parts of Systemd. This has benefits: Things tied tighter together know more about the states of other parts, and that enables various optimizations. This has issues: Replacing individual components (if you don't like their behavior) becomes more difficult. Whether it's worth it or not seems like a philosophical debate.

chris_wot 10y ago
I was genuinely not aware that the components are that intertwined that they rely on each other. Which components are problematic? In terms of Gnome - well, Gnome is Gnome. I'm not going to start defending their decisions, I disagree with quite a few of them myself.
- gkya 10y ago
  Udev (AFAIK a program that recognises and mounts plug-in devices, but I'm not sure) is developped by systemd guys and they recently told that they won't care about the case where it is used w/o systemd. It is an important part of GNU/Linux distros. Tho I used Arch for about two-three years I guess (since just before it switched to systemd as default til two monts ago), and I never had to fiddle with it, so I don't know how it affects people. Gentoo forked it to maintain a version that did not depend on systemd.
  - chris_wot 10y ago
    Yeah, that's precisely what it does - it's a daemon that interacts with the kernel for hotplug devices, etc. Is udevd used by anything other than the kernel though? If not, then I don't think it's a huge issue if those who want to use a different init system maintain their own version!
    - gkya 10y ago
      Why waste all that effort of maintaining forks when it can be avoided? Systemd folks are being hostile to the wider community of Linux users with that.
      - chris_wot 10y ago
        You don't need to - there shouldn't be anything that stops other init systems from using it.
        gkya 10y ago
        But there is, and that's why people forked it. https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Eudev https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Eudev
        chris_wot 10y ago
        Uh, that wasn't forked because udev can't work, it was forked because it fit the needs of Gentoo... Have a look at Devuan, I think you'll find that they use the same udev as Ubuntu and Debian. It's not hostile if someone forks a project to meet their requirements but the old software is used by everyone else!
        chris_wot 10y ago
        Can the person down voting please explain why? I'm going to assume you believe I've been factually inaccurate. If that's the case, I don't mind the downvotes as much as you not explaining where I'm wrong or making any attempt to engage in discourse. If I'm not wrong, then perhaps you should reconsider your actions, because I'll still say what I believe even though you may not like it, karma be damned!
        JdeBP 10y ago
        > Have a look at Devuan, I think you'll find that they use the same udev as Ubuntu and Debian. Yes, in amongst all of this systemd discussion, please do look at the notional actual topic of this page. And discover vdev. It's explicitly mentioned in the release notes. * https://github.com/jcnelson/vdev https://github.com/jcnelson/vdev * http://judecnelson.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/introducing-vdev.html http://judecnelson.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/introducing-vdev.h... * http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/debian-26/devuan-4175540922/#post5354824 http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/debian-26/devuan-417...

chris_wot 10y ago

I was genuinely not aware that the components are that intertwined that they rely on each other. Which components are problematic? In terms of Gnome - well, Gnome is Gnome. I'm not going to start defending their decisions, I disagree with quite a few of them myself.

gkya 10y ago
Udev (AFAIK a program that recognises and mounts plug-in devices, but I'm not sure) is developped by systemd guys and they recently told that they won't care about the case where it is used w/o systemd. It is an important part of GNU/Linux distros. Tho I used Arch for about two-three years I guess (since just before it switched to systemd as default til two monts ago), and I never had to fiddle with it, so I don't know how it affects people. Gentoo forked it to maintain a version that did not depend on systemd.
- chris_wot 10y ago
  Yeah, that's precisely what it does - it's a daemon that interacts with the kernel for hotplug devices, etc. Is udevd used by anything other than the kernel though? If not, then I don't think it's a huge issue if those who want to use a different init system maintain their own version!
  - gkya 10y ago
    Why waste all that effort of maintaining forks when it can be avoided? Systemd folks are being hostile to the wider community of Linux users with that.
    - chris_wot 10y ago
      You don't need to - there shouldn't be anything that stops other init systems from using it.
      - gkya 10y ago
        But there is, and that's why people forked it. https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Eudev https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Eudev
        chris_wot 10y ago
        Uh, that wasn't forked because udev can't work, it was forked because it fit the needs of Gentoo... Have a look at Devuan, I think you'll find that they use the same udev as Ubuntu and Debian. It's not hostile if someone forks a project to meet their requirements but the old software is used by everyone else!
        chris_wot 10y ago
        Can the person down voting please explain why? I'm going to assume you believe I've been factually inaccurate. If that's the case, I don't mind the downvotes as much as you not explaining where I'm wrong or making any attempt to engage in discourse. If I'm not wrong, then perhaps you should reconsider your actions, because I'll still say what I believe even though you may not like it, karma be damned!
        JdeBP 10y ago
        > Have a look at Devuan, I think you'll find that they use the same udev as Ubuntu and Debian. Yes, in amongst all of this systemd discussion, please do look at the notional actual topic of this page. And discover vdev. It's explicitly mentioned in the release notes. * https://github.com/jcnelson/vdev https://github.com/jcnelson/vdev * http://judecnelson.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/introducing-vdev.html http://judecnelson.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/introducing-vdev.h... * http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/debian-26/devuan-4175540922/#post5354824 http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/debian-26/devuan-417...