4 ms·

You are quite right, as the overall Debian's stance on systemd was far from praiseworthy. They allowed themselves to be pushed around too far by the "end-user"

by tmptmp 10y ago

You are quite right, as the overall Debian's stance on systemd was far from praiseworthy. They allowed themselves to be pushed around too far by the "end-user" (desktop-users) mentality of the gnome and few such other upstreams. This is a very good news. Indeed it would have better if the Debian had been a little bit more flexible and sensible on this issue. Congrats Devuan folks! My heartfelt thanks too. Edit: added my thanks and clarification for desktop-user.

mwfunk 10y ago
How dare they consider end users! What is the world coming to?!?
- tmptmp 10y ago
  I am not against them considering the end users. But getting pushed around by "end-user" (please read desktop-user) focus is way too unacceptable behavior, especially for a community like Debian. edit: added clarification for end-user.
  - afarrell 10y ago
    > getting pushed around by end-user focus is way too unacceptable behavior why?
    - falcolas 10y ago
      Perhaps because end users only focus on one thing, be it faster boot, or better service management, but are rarely well versed enough to understand the long term implications of using a monolith like systemd.
      - chris_wot 10y ago
        I might be one of those users. Could you explain what these long-term implications are?
    - toast0 10y ago
      It seems that GNOME had developed a strong dependency on systemd, which drove the whole process. I'm guessing "end-user" here means desktop user. I've used debian as a desktop and a server, and in the past it's been pretty easy to have it fill both roles; at this point though, systemd is basically forced onto a server system which involves a lot of changes and very little improvements for the server environment: the previous init scripts worked, my servers don't need to respond to hardware changes, or sleep, i didn't need a new ntpd, dhcpcd, syslogd, named (well ok, maybe, but unbound is what i want), anything else d.
      - tmptmp 10y ago
        Thanks for clarifying "end-user" here means desktop user. I did mean desktop user. It's so sad that the Debian community chose to ignore server users to achieve the goal of pleasing desktop users. Servers and many other users do not need the gnome at all.
        danieldk 10y ago
        And I am a server user of Debian and happy with systemd. Finally an init system that can reliably detect failing daemons and that allows me to set restarting policies.
        afarrell 10y ago
        Could you recommend a good tutorial on writing init scripts with systemd? I'm moving over from using upstart.
        JdeBP 10y ago
        Remember the first rule for migrating to systemd. * http://askubuntu.com/a/626858/43344 http://askubuntu.com/a/626858/43344 * http://homepage.ntlworld.com./jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/systemd-house-of-horror/daemonize.html#first-rule http://homepage.ntlworld.com./jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/sy... * http://askubuntu.com/a/613814/43344 http://askubuntu.com/a/613814/43344 And read the doco that comes with your operating system (presumed to be Ubuntu, given that you say that you use upstart). * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SystemdForUpstartUsers https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SystemdForUpstartUsers
    - felixgallo 10y ago
      because there are several thousand desktop linux users, and hundreds of millions of linux servers, embedded and mobile devices.
  - chris_wot 10y ago
    Except they weren't.
sandGorgon 10y ago
This is fairly untrue. If you had an opinion that you don't like systemd, that's perfectly OK...but to cast doubt on the fairly open (and very brutal) CTTE process to select systemd is very unfair. IMHO it is always good to doubt the status quo..but to discredit the winning fight put up by systemd against Shuttleworth and Upstart is very biased. The technical tradeoffs in systemd may not be worth it to you... But it won on technical merit. FWIW I can't wait to see the next Holy War around snap packages.

by tmptmp 10y ago

mwfunk 10y ago

How dare they consider end users! What is the world coming to?!?

tmptmp 10y ago
I am not against them considering the end users. But getting pushed around by "end-user" (please read desktop-user) focus is way too unacceptable behavior, especially for a community like Debian. edit: added clarification for end-user.
- afarrell 10y ago
  > getting pushed around by end-user focus is way too unacceptable behavior why?
  - falcolas 10y ago
    Perhaps because end users only focus on one thing, be it faster boot, or better service management, but are rarely well versed enough to understand the long term implications of using a monolith like systemd.
    - chris_wot 10y ago
      I might be one of those users. Could you explain what these long-term implications are?
  - toast0 10y ago
    It seems that GNOME had developed a strong dependency on systemd, which drove the whole process. I'm guessing "end-user" here means desktop user. I've used debian as a desktop and a server, and in the past it's been pretty easy to have it fill both roles; at this point though, systemd is basically forced onto a server system which involves a lot of changes and very little improvements for the server environment: the previous init scripts worked, my servers don't need to respond to hardware changes, or sleep, i didn't need a new ntpd, dhcpcd, syslogd, named (well ok, maybe, but unbound is what i want), anything else d.
    - tmptmp 10y ago
      Thanks for clarifying "end-user" here means desktop user. I did mean desktop user. It's so sad that the Debian community chose to ignore server users to achieve the goal of pleasing desktop users. Servers and many other users do not need the gnome at all.
      - danieldk 10y ago
        And I am a server user of Debian and happy with systemd. Finally an init system that can reliably detect failing daemons and that allows me to set restarting policies.
        afarrell 10y ago
        Could you recommend a good tutorial on writing init scripts with systemd? I'm moving over from using upstart.
        JdeBP 10y ago
        Remember the first rule for migrating to systemd. * http://askubuntu.com/a/626858/43344 http://askubuntu.com/a/626858/43344 * http://homepage.ntlworld.com./jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/systemd-house-of-horror/daemonize.html#first-rule http://homepage.ntlworld.com./jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/sy... * http://askubuntu.com/a/613814/43344 http://askubuntu.com/a/613814/43344 And read the doco that comes with your operating system (presumed to be Ubuntu, given that you say that you use upstart). * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SystemdForUpstartUsers https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SystemdForUpstartUsers
  - felixgallo 10y ago
    because there are several thousand desktop linux users, and hundreds of millions of linux servers, embedded and mobile devices.
- chris_wot 10y ago
  Except they weren't.

sandGorgon 10y ago

This is fairly untrue. If you had an opinion that you don't like systemd, that's perfectly OK...but to cast doubt on the fairly open (and very brutal) CTTE process to select systemd is very unfair. IMHO it is always good to doubt the status quo..but to discredit the winning fight put up by systemd against Shuttleworth and Upstart is very biased. The technical tradeoffs in systemd may not be worth it to you... But it won on technical merit. FWIW I can't wait to see the next Holy War around snap packages.