5 ms·

This is why I laugh when people want to flock into the software engineering profession, or act like we are well paid. Software engineering is the watch maker o

by Touche 11y ago

This is why I laugh when people want to flock into the software engineering profession, or act like we are well paid. Software engineering is the watch maker of the 21st century. I can't think of any profession where the demands to compensation ratio is so out of whack. As an engineer you're expected to be exceptionally bright, exceptionally creative (we have to invent new things all of the time), exceptionally passionate, deal with stress (an off-by-one error can cost your company millions) all while living a very middle class life. I'm sure being a brain surgeon is much more stressful and takes longer to achieve, but hey, those people live in neighborhoods I can't afford to go into.

dave_sullivan 11y ago
> I'm sure being a brain surgeon is much more stressful and takes longer to achieve, but hey, those people live in neighborhoods I can't afford to go into. Most doctors and lawyers don't make lots of money in comparison to a reasonably well paid software engineer. There are tracks that will lead to bigger bucks (if lucky) where you essentially sell your soul for the chance to get there. Big law firms have "partner track", doctors and lawyers can start their own practice, and various areas in medicine can still be very lucrative (eg, plastic surgery). Those tracks are all super hard. The equivalent for software engineers is starting a company or seeking a high level position at a large, fast-growing company. I agree that software as it exists today will change: more people will come into it, wages will go down in many areas. Smart people that want to make more money will specialize (hopefully choosing the right specialization). As a comparison though, an independent consultant with a reasonably sought after technical specialty can make significantly more money, with less school and regulation, than lawyers or doctors at similar levels. If you start a successful software business (even a tiny ISV with real customers), you can make considerably more than doctors or lawyers, again with less school and regulation. I'm sticking with software!
- vemy 11y ago
  Almost all doctors will make much more than the vast majority programmers. I think you are underestimating how much doctors earn.
  - dave_sullivan 11y ago
    http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Physician_%2f_Doctor%2c_Internal_Medicine/Salary http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Physician_%2f_Doctor... http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer/Salary http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer/Sa... http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Attorney_%2f_Lawyer/Salary http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Attorney_%2f_Lawyer/... Attorney pay and software engineer pay seem remarkably similar. Physicians earn, on average, double what attorneys and software engineers make. But there's a lot of ways to cut that: engineers can start earning much earlier than physicians can. There is also a much wider gamut in quality, in that some working software engineers are quite bad, but doctors that are quite bad are rightly forced to leave the profession. This arguably skews the average up. Also less ultimate downside risk in software: nobody can take away your right to practice software engineering. If the question is: "Where can I maximize my earning potential: law, medicine, or tech?" I still say tech. I'd also argue all 3 of these jobs are "middle class professions", but tech has the highest upside for anyone branching out on their own (IE, fortune 500 is not filled with practicing doctors and lawyers).
    - Touche 11y ago
      I don't know, I think it's far easier to get into the 300k range as a doctor than as a software engineer. There are 300k doctors in every city in the country, whereas there's probably only a handful of companies where you can make that much as an engineer.
    - freyr 11y ago
      While the average attorney makes a comparable amount to a programmer, the ceiling on attorney pay is much higher. If you work for a reputable law firm in a large city, you can expect to make $150,000 base, with significant raises annually until the eighth year when it levels out, usually around $250k+ base. If you then make partner, you can of course make much more, e.g. 600k+. Or you can become corporate counsel, and seven figure compensation is not unheard of. This might not represent the "average" attorney, but there really isn't a comparable track to take as programmer while maintaining the title "programmer." Regarding physician pay, you cited the average salary of an internist. There are many specialties (orthopedic surgery, cardiology, urology, dermatology, radiology, etc.) that earn far more on average.
untog 11y ago
> I can't think of any profession where the demands to compensation ratio is so out of whack Teacher is one that immediately comes to mind. Nurse? Probably. Soldier? If you're deployed, certainly. I don't think software engineers actually have that high a level of demand, on the whole. Don't get me wrong, many lead very stressful lives but a great many are also coddled with free food and amenities in their office, babysitting relatively static code. Then they go home to their comfortable apartments with smartphone app controlled lights.
- dmix 11y ago
  Plus every year what we do becomes more and more critical to society. I believe pay will continue to rise. Especially the top precentile. Another HN article mentioned that top AI researchers get offers comparable to NFL quarterbacks.
- Touche 11y ago
  Yeah I sort of disagree, but first let me say that I do not think we have it terrible, or that we have the toughest job. What I'm (inelegantly) describing is vs. perception. I don't think people get into the jobs you mentioned for money. Whereas I feel there is this perception that Software Engineer is an elite level paying job, similar to doctors and lawyers. And I disagree on this; we are (not all of us, I know there are plenty of clock in-and-out engineering jobs) expected to invent new things on an almost daily basis. I can't think of any other job where you judged based on the number of widgets you produce where you are also expected, again -- almost daily, to produce new types of widgets (that are only vaguely speced for you). When I think of jobs where people are expected to create new things; I think of architects, fashion designers, and the like.
  - burger_moon 11y ago
    Machinists, welders, carpenters, trade jobs in general come to mind when I read your statement.
    - untog 11y ago
zwischenzug 11y ago
My wife is a mental health nurse working with murderers about to be released, preparing them for everyday life in the hope that psychotherapy won't make them re-offend. That's not a profession that lacks the need to be passionate, or deal with stress (a verbal slip could mean our family is killed) while requiring creativity and years of experience to be effective. I get to sit on my ass and make over 4 times as much as her. There are many more professions people could cite, I'm sure.

by Touche 11y ago

dave_sullivan 11y ago

> I'm sure being a brain surgeon is much more stressful and takes longer to achieve, but hey, those people live in neighborhoods I can't afford to go into. Most doctors and lawyers don't make lots of money in comparison to a reasonably well paid software engineer. There are tracks that will lead to bigger bucks (if lucky) where you essentially sell your soul for the chance to get there. Big law firms have "partner track", doctors and lawyers can start their own practice, and various areas in medicine can still be very lucrative (eg, plastic surgery). Those tracks are all super hard. The equivalent for software engineers is starting a company or seeking a high level position at a large, fast-growing company. I agree that software as it exists today will change: more people will come into it, wages will go down in many areas. Smart people that want to make more money will specialize (hopefully choosing the right specialization). As a comparison though, an independent consultant with a reasonably sought after technical specialty can make significantly more money, with less school and regulation, than lawyers or doctors at similar levels. If you start a successful software business (even a tiny ISV with real customers), you can make considerably more than doctors or lawyers, again with less school and regulation. I'm sticking with software!

vemy 11y ago
Almost all doctors will make much more than the vast majority programmers. I think you are underestimating how much doctors earn.
- dave_sullivan 11y ago
  http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Physician_%2f_Doctor%2c_Internal_Medicine/Salary http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Physician_%2f_Doctor... http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer/Salary http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer/Sa... http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Attorney_%2f_Lawyer/Salary http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Attorney_%2f_Lawyer/... Attorney pay and software engineer pay seem remarkably similar. Physicians earn, on average, double what attorneys and software engineers make. But there's a lot of ways to cut that: engineers can start earning much earlier than physicians can. There is also a much wider gamut in quality, in that some working software engineers are quite bad, but doctors that are quite bad are rightly forced to leave the profession. This arguably skews the average up. Also less ultimate downside risk in software: nobody can take away your right to practice software engineering. If the question is: "Where can I maximize my earning potential: law, medicine, or tech?" I still say tech. I'd also argue all 3 of these jobs are "middle class professions", but tech has the highest upside for anyone branching out on their own (IE, fortune 500 is not filled with practicing doctors and lawyers).
  - Touche 11y ago
    I don't know, I think it's far easier to get into the 300k range as a doctor than as a software engineer. There are 300k doctors in every city in the country, whereas there's probably only a handful of companies where you can make that much as an engineer.
  - freyr 11y ago
    While the average attorney makes a comparable amount to a programmer, the ceiling on attorney pay is much higher. If you work for a reputable law firm in a large city, you can expect to make $150,000 base, with significant raises annually until the eighth year when it levels out, usually around $250k+ base. If you then make partner, you can of course make much more, e.g. 600k+. Or you can become corporate counsel, and seven figure compensation is not unheard of. This might not represent the "average" attorney, but there really isn't a comparable track to take as programmer while maintaining the title "programmer." Regarding physician pay, you cited the average salary of an internist. There are many specialties (orthopedic surgery, cardiology, urology, dermatology, radiology, etc.) that earn far more on average.

untog 11y ago

> I can't think of any profession where the demands to compensation ratio is so out of whack Teacher is one that immediately comes to mind. Nurse? Probably. Soldier? If you're deployed, certainly. I don't think software engineers actually have that high a level of demand, on the whole. Don't get me wrong, many lead very stressful lives but a great many are also coddled with free food and amenities in their office, babysitting relatively static code. Then they go home to their comfortable apartments with smartphone app controlled lights.

dmix 11y ago
Plus every year what we do becomes more and more critical to society. I believe pay will continue to rise. Especially the top precentile. Another HN article mentioned that top AI researchers get offers comparable to NFL quarterbacks.
Touche 11y ago
Yeah I sort of disagree, but first let me say that I do not think we have it terrible, or that we have the toughest job. What I'm (inelegantly) describing is vs. perception. I don't think people get into the jobs you mentioned for money. Whereas I feel there is this perception that Software Engineer is an elite level paying job, similar to doctors and lawyers. And I disagree on this; we are (not all of us, I know there are plenty of clock in-and-out engineering jobs) expected to invent new things on an almost daily basis. I can't think of any other job where you judged based on the number of widgets you produce where you are also expected, again -- almost daily, to produce new types of widgets (that are only vaguely speced for you). When I think of jobs where people are expected to create new things; I think of architects, fashion designers, and the like.
- burger_moon 11y ago
  Machinists, welders, carpenters, trade jobs in general come to mind when I read your statement.
  - untog 11y ago

zwischenzug 11y ago

My wife is a mental health nurse working with murderers about to be released, preparing them for everyday life in the hope that psychotherapy won't make them re-offend. That's not a profession that lacks the need to be passionate, or deal with stress (a verbal slip could mean our family is killed) while requiring creativity and years of experience to be effective. I get to sit on my ass and make over 4 times as much as her. There are many more professions people could cite, I'm sure.