4 ms·

The linked treatise on JavaScript sounds almost satirical to me[1]. > Our tentative policy is to consider a JavaScript program nontrivial if: > it makes an AJ

by Zikes 10y ago

The linked treatise on JavaScript sounds almost satirical to me[1]. > Our tentative policy is to consider a JavaScript program nontrivial if: > it makes an AJAX request or is loaded along with scripts that make an AJAX request, Sometimes I think RMS would be happier if the web had just stopped development after the release of the Mosaic browser. [1] http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html

jff 10y ago
> Sometimes I think RMS would be happier if the web had just stopped development after the release of the Mosaic browser Sometimes I look at modern websites and think I'd be happier too.
- Zikes 10y ago
  There are right and wrong ways to solve the web's many problems. RMS wants to throw the baby out with the bathwater here.
  - jpetso 10y ago
    So under the hypothetical assumption that you regarded RMS's problems as valid, what would you consider as the right ways to solve them?
justinlardinois 10y ago
I mean, doesn't he wget pages and then run them locally in lynx?
throwanem 10y ago
> Sometimes I think RMS would be happier if the web had just stopped development after the release of the Mosaic browser. Or before. He doesn't really [1] browse the web: > I generally do not connect to web sites from my own machine, aside from a few sites I have some special relationship with. I usually fetch web pages from other sites by sending mail to a program (see git://git.gnu.org/womb/hacks.git) that fetches them, much like wget, and then mails them back to me. Then I look at them using a web browser, unless it is easy to see the text in the HTML page directly. I usually try lynx first, then a graphical browser if the page needs it (using konqueror, which won't fetch from other sites in such a situation). [1] https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html
- Klathmon 10y ago
  I saw that quote once and i thought it was satire...
  - throwanem 10y ago
    Poe's law is in full effect with Dr. Stallman.
- Zikes 10y ago
  Email makes a network request, just like AJAX, which makes it "non-trivial" by his definition.
  - rekado 10y ago
    Which is why we he uses free software for email.
lazaroclapp 10y ago
I don't think the point is that RMS is against complex Javascript apps at all. His point is: a) If it makes an AJAX request, it likely is a piece of software (a web app) more than it is a webpage. b) If it is software, then he (and the people using this) care about it being free software. I use and have made proprietary web apps, yet I wouldn't disagree with RMS on the argument that such apps leave less control to the user than free software on their own devices does. It seems like objective reality. Given the practicalities, I don't consider it a deal-breaker in all cases - I give up some control in exchange for other things - but I can understand people who do. This is the "Certified Vegan" for the web. People are free to change their consumption habits for moral reasons and that includes web apps, this remains true even if you think their particular fight has no merit or is not worth fighting.
- Zikes 10y ago
  Blocking the JS is great and makes complete sense. It's like a slightly more open NoScript, in that it tries to analyze the JS first. The part I take issue with is that LibreJS adds a "Complaint" feature[1] that asks users to contact the web developers to ask them to change their pages. Should people really be emailing Google and asking them to disable AJAX in their Gmail application? Or Twitter's automatic feed updates? It puts an unfair burden on developers and defines a ridiculously narrow window of "freedom" for JavaScript. [1] https://www.gnu.org/software/librejs/manual/librejs.html#Complaint-Feature https://www.gnu.org/software/librejs/manual/librejs.html#Com...
  - lazaroclapp 10y ago
    Technically, you wouldn't be asking them to disable AJAX, you would be asking them to make the code free software. Now, if people do this for Gmail or Twitter they will probably get no response or a formulaic response about not opening their code. But how about Wordpress? Or Wikipedia? Or government sites developed with public money in certain countries that require open sourcing public works? I think opening that tab by default is a bit much, but I can imagine cases where people would report "hey, this site is/should be running open-source/free software, please add a license to your code". This is not about blocking code execution in your browser, is about not running proprietary code in your browser if you don't want to.
SEJeff 10y ago
Actually, he would likely want everyone to be an absolute masochist like him and have websites converted to emails: https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html """ I generally do not connect to web sites from my own machine, aside from a few sites I have some special relationship with. I usually fetch web pages from other sites by sending mail to a program (see git://git.gnu.org/womb/hacks.git) that fetches them, much like wget, and then mails them back to me. Then I look at them using a web browser, unless it is easy to see the text in the HTML page directly. I usually try lynx first, then a graphical browser if the page needs it (using konqueror, which won't fetch from other sites in such a situation). """ I for one am glad we aren't back in 1980 on serial connections.
- j_koreth 10y ago
  Where does stallman say he wants other people to do the same as him. He merely listed just how he browsers rahpther than how I ther people should browse
  - krapp 10y ago
    Would it not be safe to assume that, if RMS is living according to his principles, his lifestyle reflects what he believes to be a reasonable expression of those principles? Why would he refuse to use a web browser, if it were possible for him to do so within his moral framework?
    - pessimizer 10y ago
      That's like saying that priests don't think anyone should have sex.
      - krapp 10y ago
        Priests (for certain values of "priest") do believe only heterosexual married Christians can have sex without committing sin, as long as they only have sex with their spouse, so it is kind of like that.

by Zikes 10y ago

jff 10y ago

> Sometimes I think RMS would be happier if the web had just stopped development after the release of the Mosaic browser Sometimes I look at modern websites and think I'd be happier too.

Zikes 10y ago
There are right and wrong ways to solve the web's many problems. RMS wants to throw the baby out with the bathwater here.
- jpetso 10y ago
  So under the hypothetical assumption that you regarded RMS's problems as valid, what would you consider as the right ways to solve them?

justinlardinois 10y ago

I mean, doesn't he wget pages and then run them locally in lynx?

throwanem 10y ago

> Sometimes I think RMS would be happier if the web had just stopped development after the release of the Mosaic browser. Or before. He doesn't really [1] browse the web: > I generally do not connect to web sites from my own machine, aside from a few sites I have some special relationship with. I usually fetch web pages from other sites by sending mail to a program (see git://git.gnu.org/womb/hacks.git) that fetches them, much like wget, and then mails them back to me. Then I look at them using a web browser, unless it is easy to see the text in the HTML page directly. I usually try lynx first, then a graphical browser if the page needs it (using konqueror, which won't fetch from other sites in such a situation). [1] https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html

Klathmon 10y ago
I saw that quote once and i thought it was satire...
- throwanem 10y ago
  Poe's law is in full effect with Dr. Stallman.
Zikes 10y ago
Email makes a network request, just like AJAX, which makes it "non-trivial" by his definition.
- rekado 10y ago
  Which is why we he uses free software for email.

lazaroclapp 10y ago

I don't think the point is that RMS is against complex Javascript apps at all. His point is: a) If it makes an AJAX request, it likely is a piece of software (a web app) more than it is a webpage. b) If it is software, then he (and the people using this) care about it being free software. I use and have made proprietary web apps, yet I wouldn't disagree with RMS on the argument that such apps leave less control to the user than free software on their own devices does. It seems like objective reality. Given the practicalities, I don't consider it a deal-breaker in all cases - I give up some control in exchange for other things - but I can understand people who do. This is the "Certified Vegan" for the web. People are free to change their consumption habits for moral reasons and that includes web apps, this remains true even if you think their particular fight has no merit or is not worth fighting.

Zikes 10y ago
Blocking the JS is great and makes complete sense. It's like a slightly more open NoScript, in that it tries to analyze the JS first. The part I take issue with is that LibreJS adds a "Complaint" feature[1] that asks users to contact the web developers to ask them to change their pages. Should people really be emailing Google and asking them to disable AJAX in their Gmail application? Or Twitter's automatic feed updates? It puts an unfair burden on developers and defines a ridiculously narrow window of "freedom" for JavaScript. [1] https://www.gnu.org/software/librejs/manual/librejs.html#Complaint-Feature https://www.gnu.org/software/librejs/manual/librejs.html#Com...
- lazaroclapp 10y ago
  Technically, you wouldn't be asking them to disable AJAX, you would be asking them to make the code free software. Now, if people do this for Gmail or Twitter they will probably get no response or a formulaic response about not opening their code. But how about Wordpress? Or Wikipedia? Or government sites developed with public money in certain countries that require open sourcing public works? I think opening that tab by default is a bit much, but I can imagine cases where people would report "hey, this site is/should be running open-source/free software, please add a license to your code". This is not about blocking code execution in your browser, is about not running proprietary code in your browser if you don't want to.

SEJeff 10y ago

Actually, he would likely want everyone to be an absolute masochist like him and have websites converted to emails: https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html """ I generally do not connect to web sites from my own machine, aside from a few sites I have some special relationship with. I usually fetch web pages from other sites by sending mail to a program (see git://git.gnu.org/womb/hacks.git) that fetches them, much like wget, and then mails them back to me. Then I look at them using a web browser, unless it is easy to see the text in the HTML page directly. I usually try lynx first, then a graphical browser if the page needs it (using konqueror, which won't fetch from other sites in such a situation). """ I for one am glad we aren't back in 1980 on serial connections.

j_koreth 10y ago
Where does stallman say he wants other people to do the same as him. He merely listed just how he browsers rahpther than how I ther people should browse
- krapp 10y ago
  Would it not be safe to assume that, if RMS is living according to his principles, his lifestyle reflects what he believes to be a reasonable expression of those principles? Why would he refuse to use a web browser, if it were possible for him to do so within his moral framework?
  - pessimizer 10y ago
    That's like saying that priests don't think anyone should have sex.
    - krapp 10y ago
      Priests (for certain values of "priest") do believe only heterosexual married Christians can have sex without committing sin, as long as they only have sex with their spouse, so it is kind of like that.