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This is a strange statement. Do you underestimate how many of your friends and respected peers are #1? I think it's the #2s who are too quick to dismiss #1s th

This is a strange statement. Do you underestimate how many of your friends and respected peers are #1? I think it's the #2s who are too quick to dismiss #1s that I tend to have a problem with. I don't think jerkiness correlates with either of them even a little bit.

tptacek 11y ago
There are people who are both #1 and #2, but they're pretty rare. Or, at least, that's the perception I get, because I don't generally have to interrogate people to learn if they're #1s: they're all too happy to broadcast that fact.
- bcook 11y ago
  Are you speaking from personal (statistically insignificant) experience or do you have some quantifiable evidence to share? Your HN-karma & real-world accomplishments aside, do you honestly think you can psychologically categorize a group accurately enough that we should use your defined stereotype to improve ourselves and/or society?
  - tptacek 11y ago
    I think it's pretty obvious I'm speaking from personal experience, and I'm not sure it matters to me what you choose to do with that information.
    - dvanduzer 11y ago
      Would you consider the Wozniak/Jobs story part of the canon? The hero's journey from #1 to #2? (i.e. #1 Cops & Robbers -> #2 Realpolitik)
    - bcook 11y ago
      >I think it's pretty obvious I'm speaking from personal experience, and I'm not sure it matters to me what you choose to do with that information Everything is obvious to the person who has nothing to learn.
      - tptacek 11y ago
        I'm sorry, I'm really not clear on what you're trying to say here. Do you disagree with the #1/#2 breakdown I presented? That's totally fine. But I don't think it's any less productive than the discussion about whether "infosec has a jerk problem".
        bcook 11y ago
        The article show-cased common social problems and then shared ways of mitigating, even understanding, the "jerks". We could all be more kind. Your post seemed to be focused on the details of those you dislike. That's it. No story about how you built camraderie or struggled to understand them. What lesson should someone learn from your post?
        tptacek 11y ago
        Huh. Fair enough. My comment is definitely about my issues, and probably not (now that I'm forced to reflect on it) in the original spirit of the post. This particular issue is buzzing in my head this week because of the stupid grsecurity Twitter drama, which is really bugging me. I guess I'd like an "infosec community" that spends more effort thinking about engineering and less about community dynamics. We could definitely all be kinder.

tptacek 11y ago

There are people who are both #1 and #2, but they're pretty rare. Or, at least, that's the perception I get, because I don't generally have to interrogate people to learn if they're #1s: they're all too happy to broadcast that fact.

bcook 11y ago
Are you speaking from personal (statistically insignificant) experience or do you have some quantifiable evidence to share? Your HN-karma & real-world accomplishments aside, do you honestly think you can psychologically categorize a group accurately enough that we should use your defined stereotype to improve ourselves and/or society?
- tptacek 11y ago
  I think it's pretty obvious I'm speaking from personal experience, and I'm not sure it matters to me what you choose to do with that information.
  - dvanduzer 11y ago
    Would you consider the Wozniak/Jobs story part of the canon? The hero's journey from #1 to #2? (i.e. #1 Cops & Robbers -> #2 Realpolitik)
  - bcook 11y ago
    >I think it's pretty obvious I'm speaking from personal experience, and I'm not sure it matters to me what you choose to do with that information Everything is obvious to the person who has nothing to learn.
    - tptacek 11y ago
      I'm sorry, I'm really not clear on what you're trying to say here. Do you disagree with the #1/#2 breakdown I presented? That's totally fine. But I don't think it's any less productive than the discussion about whether "infosec has a jerk problem".
      - bcook 11y ago
        The article show-cased common social problems and then shared ways of mitigating, even understanding, the "jerks". We could all be more kind. Your post seemed to be focused on the details of those you dislike. That's it. No story about how you built camraderie or struggled to understand them. What lesson should someone learn from your post?
        tptacek 11y ago
        Huh. Fair enough. My comment is definitely about my issues, and probably not (now that I'm forced to reflect on it) in the original spirit of the post. This particular issue is buzzing in my head this week because of the stupid grsecurity Twitter drama, which is really bugging me. I guess I'd like an "infosec community" that spends more effort thinking about engineering and less about community dynamics. We could definitely all be kinder.