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> I appreciate the effort put into wording that nicely, but really all you're saying is, "Company, you need me more than I need you, and I expect YOU to jump th

> I appreciate the effort put into wording that nicely, but really all you're saying is, "Company, you need me more than I need you, and I expect YOU to jump through MY hoops." This is only true when you're a one-in-a-million talent. It's not going to work for the other 999,999 people. No it is not. I have a job. I'm too busy taking time out of my day to explain concepts that I barely use and not going to be using at employer who is asking them. That is the broken part. They are passing up on good hires with irrelevant crap because some them don't have the time. > Why bother with this kook when there's a line of people outside eager to have a shot. Because the kook that refuses to explain merge sort might be better at the job than the guy who desperatly jumps through hoops.

vonmoltke 10y ago
> Because the kook that refuses to explain merge sort might be better at the job than the guy who desperatly jumps through hoops. Who cares if the kook is better if the other one is good enough? At some point, "better" hits diminishing returns and is no longer worth it. It's the reason "we only hire the top X%" attitude is wasteful bullshit for most companies.
- JanneVee 10y ago
  >At some point, "better" hits diminishing returns and is no longer worth it. Well the whole point throwing out CS trivia questions is to find the better candidate. It is the diminishing returns... by simply restricting your candidate pool to people that have the time to jump through hoops.
- beat 10y ago
  One of my co-founders made a really interesting observation the other day... the 10x programmer often gets his 10x by leeching the performance of other team members. 10x programmers don't talk through their decisions with teammates, or think about the consequences of their rapid changes on other members, or indeed, the long-term health of the project. If a 10x programmer turns a 3x team into a 1x team, that super-genius isn't worth having. And this is why I hate working with primadonnas who think they're brilliant.
  - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
    How do you feel about hard-working brilliant folks who are humble? This sounds more like resentment to me. "Its hard to keep up with brilliant folks" is not a reason to avoid them. They may make more work, but you get to a different place than plodding along with the herd.
    - beat 10y ago
      It's not a matter of "It's hard to keep up with the brilliant folks". It's that they are often actively destructive to the productivity of the team. Hence my co-founder's comment. Brilliant people can often be easygoing and a great benefit to their teams. They do it by moving the whole team forward. They're never 10x individually in that case, but they may elevate a 3x team to 5x. edit: Find me an engineer who is both brilliant and humble, and I'll bend over backwards to hire that person.
      - eonw 10y ago
        ive only met one in my life, and i wouldn't recommend him to anyone... if he was available and i could afford him i would in do it a heartbeat first. he was a 10x with more diplomacy and kindness then any co-worker ive ever had. rare breed indeed.
      - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
        Hm. It could be both. And probably the 'cowboys' we've all experienced are not all brilliant. It doesn't take brilliance to torpedo a team. And I suggest that 3X a small team may be less than 10X the one person. Maybe a better team is one that supports a brilliant developer, making a deliverable out of their prototype. That's another way to manage it.
  - dasil003 10y ago
    To make this a bit more subtle, I consider 10x to be contextual. Some developers will legitimately be 10x in some circumstances but not others. The kind of prima donna you are talking about (assuming they are truly brilliant and not just a Dunning-Kruger case) can probably only be 10x on small solo projects. But there are definitely those programmers who are 10x or even 100x by being a combination of brilliant plus collaboration-minded. The thing about programming is that it is a relatively easy form of automation of data processing, so whereas a single developer can have multiples of impact far greater than a traditional office worker, and sometimes even greater than the impact of a traditional office manager (because software is more scalable than people), you can get a multiplicative effect when you combine great programming with great programmer management and collaboration. This is where you'll find a lot of my programming heroes. For example, what Yehuda Katz did with Bundler in terms of gathering community input and hammering something into shape to solve a whole host of hairy problems with RubyGems which no single individual could completely grok is inspiring. The amount of impact a project like that has on the productivity of thousands is impossible to quantify. I guess Linus Torvalds would be the quintessential example of that, for his ability to channel the efforts of thousands of developers in a cohesive direction while maintaining an impressive standard of quality. So being 10x, 100x, 1000x is possible, but it depends on working on the right problems with the right people.
sabarn01 10y ago
Yea but he also might just be a person who only works on the stuff they like and shrek the other stuff. No job is all roses otherwise you wouldn't get paid. You need people who can work within others processes. Attitude trumps talent 90% of the time.
- JanneVee 10y ago
  I'm not suggesting to dump all forms of interview but I think having a process with multiple hoops to jump through is a waste of my time. Through my experience it gives them way too many opportunities to find a reason not to like me and rejecting my application. The only time I accept hiring processes with more than two interviews is when I'm unemployed. While employed I ask about the process and if I don't like the process... I don't bother. >Yea but he also might just be a person who only works on the stuff they like and shrek the other stuff. Yeah normal interview questions can give answers to that.

vonmoltke 10y ago

> Because the kook that refuses to explain merge sort might be better at the job than the guy who desperatly jumps through hoops. Who cares if the kook is better if the other one is good enough? At some point, "better" hits diminishing returns and is no longer worth it. It's the reason "we only hire the top X%" attitude is wasteful bullshit for most companies.

JanneVee 10y ago
>At some point, "better" hits diminishing returns and is no longer worth it. Well the whole point throwing out CS trivia questions is to find the better candidate. It is the diminishing returns... by simply restricting your candidate pool to people that have the time to jump through hoops.
beat 10y ago
One of my co-founders made a really interesting observation the other day... the 10x programmer often gets his 10x by leeching the performance of other team members. 10x programmers don't talk through their decisions with teammates, or think about the consequences of their rapid changes on other members, or indeed, the long-term health of the project. If a 10x programmer turns a 3x team into a 1x team, that super-genius isn't worth having. And this is why I hate working with primadonnas who think they're brilliant.
- JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  How do you feel about hard-working brilliant folks who are humble? This sounds more like resentment to me. "Its hard to keep up with brilliant folks" is not a reason to avoid them. They may make more work, but you get to a different place than plodding along with the herd.
  - beat 10y ago
    It's not a matter of "It's hard to keep up with the brilliant folks". It's that they are often actively destructive to the productivity of the team. Hence my co-founder's comment. Brilliant people can often be easygoing and a great benefit to their teams. They do it by moving the whole team forward. They're never 10x individually in that case, but they may elevate a 3x team to 5x. edit: Find me an engineer who is both brilliant and humble, and I'll bend over backwards to hire that person.
    - eonw 10y ago
      ive only met one in my life, and i wouldn't recommend him to anyone... if he was available and i could afford him i would in do it a heartbeat first. he was a 10x with more diplomacy and kindness then any co-worker ive ever had. rare breed indeed.
    - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
      Hm. It could be both. And probably the 'cowboys' we've all experienced are not all brilliant. It doesn't take brilliance to torpedo a team. And I suggest that 3X a small team may be less than 10X the one person. Maybe a better team is one that supports a brilliant developer, making a deliverable out of their prototype. That's another way to manage it.
- dasil003 10y ago
  To make this a bit more subtle, I consider 10x to be contextual. Some developers will legitimately be 10x in some circumstances but not others. The kind of prima donna you are talking about (assuming they are truly brilliant and not just a Dunning-Kruger case) can probably only be 10x on small solo projects. But there are definitely those programmers who are 10x or even 100x by being a combination of brilliant plus collaboration-minded. The thing about programming is that it is a relatively easy form of automation of data processing, so whereas a single developer can have multiples of impact far greater than a traditional office worker, and sometimes even greater than the impact of a traditional office manager (because software is more scalable than people), you can get a multiplicative effect when you combine great programming with great programmer management and collaboration. This is where you'll find a lot of my programming heroes. For example, what Yehuda Katz did with Bundler in terms of gathering community input and hammering something into shape to solve a whole host of hairy problems with RubyGems which no single individual could completely grok is inspiring. The amount of impact a project like that has on the productivity of thousands is impossible to quantify. I guess Linus Torvalds would be the quintessential example of that, for his ability to channel the efforts of thousands of developers in a cohesive direction while maintaining an impressive standard of quality. So being 10x, 100x, 1000x is possible, but it depends on working on the right problems with the right people.

sabarn01 10y ago

Yea but he also might just be a person who only works on the stuff they like and shrek the other stuff. No job is all roses otherwise you wouldn't get paid. You need people who can work within others processes. Attitude trumps talent 90% of the time.

JanneVee 10y ago
I'm not suggesting to dump all forms of interview but I think having a process with multiple hoops to jump through is a waste of my time. Through my experience it gives them way too many opportunities to find a reason not to like me and rejecting my application. The only time I accept hiring processes with more than two interviews is when I'm unemployed. While employed I ask about the process and if I don't like the process... I don't bother. >Yea but he also might just be a person who only works on the stuff they like and shrek the other stuff. Yeah normal interview questions can give answers to that.