4 ms·

No, the OP did not make clear that the employee "didn't have a place in [his] organization". He made clear it cannot continue like that - but that leaves the em

by jlg23 11y ago

No, the OP did not make clear that the employee "didn't have a place in [his] organization". He made clear it cannot continue like that - but that leaves the employee a chance to reflect on and change his attitude towards the job.

lsc 11y ago
Yeah, the difference is subtle. I know I was fired like this once, and I still say I was fired, but from the boss' actions at the time? I think he was super surprised that I made that choice; he fully expected me to do the "do this thing" part of the "do this thing or quit" ultimatum. I mean, it was an ultimatum, but as far as I can tell, I could very well have simply done what the boss asked of me and kept the job.
- phamilton 11y ago
  I think the ultimatum here might have had more than two options. "Adapt to the situation and be happy, don't adapt and be miserable but know that complaining about it will be ignored, or leave" I wonder how different that is from just saying "No" when asked to fix things for the employee. I'd view that as being a terrible manager, but not as a firing.
  - jlg23 11y ago
    It is not always an option to fix things for the employee and the OP did not provide enough context to judge whether this was the case here or not. And, if both parties parted as amicably as claimed by the OP, how bad can the management have been?
    - phamilton 11y ago
      My point is that this was a similar situation to what we normally write off as "bad management". I'd say OP did not follow the traditional bad manager path, and found a better approach.
      - lsc 11y ago
        >My point is that this was a similar situation to what we normally write off as "bad management" why? because there was an ultimatum? I don't really see it as bad management. Sometimes it doesn't work out, and that's fine. Sometimes a relationship that worked last year or last month doesn't work anymore... and while that's sad, it's also natural and should be okay. And sometimes, it's clear that the employee and the employer are moving in different directions. This is okay. I think that employees need to stop thinking that getting fired is the end of the world, because it puts them at a serious disadvantage. That's the thing; the negotiation doesn't end when you are done negotiating salary; and work is almost a constant negotiation. If you aren't willing to walk, or if you aren't willing to let the other guy walk, you are going to get screwed. Relationships end; it happens, be prepared for that eventuality financially and emotionally, and learn to move on.
        lsc 11y ago
        (replying to my own comment, sorry) - Parent comment was suggesting that we would call a boss simply saying "no" to an employee asking for some change to be bad management. And that's a pretty reasonable assertion, unlike the straw man I constructed through poor reading comprehension. So the question then is "why is an ultimatum okay when just saying "no" isn't?" and that's a good question. I mean, I guess it's explaining that, you know, this is something the boss isn't going to change, that the boss would rather change the employee than change the thing the employee is asking to change. so... I guess that is better than "no" because it conveys a lot more information. I mean, you could get a similar effect, I think, without the ultimatum with a sufficient "no, and here is why:" but the ultimatum conveys more information about the employers priorities.
        phamilton 11y ago
        Yep. You pretty much answered your question. Management sometimes has to make crappy decisions. Good management is being transparent even through crappy decisions. Bad management is being opaque through the same crappy decisions.

by jlg23 11y ago

lsc 11y ago

Yeah, the difference is subtle. I know I was fired like this once, and I still say I was fired, but from the boss' actions at the time? I think he was super surprised that I made that choice; he fully expected me to do the "do this thing" part of the "do this thing or quit" ultimatum. I mean, it was an ultimatum, but as far as I can tell, I could very well have simply done what the boss asked of me and kept the job.

phamilton 11y ago
I think the ultimatum here might have had more than two options. "Adapt to the situation and be happy, don't adapt and be miserable but know that complaining about it will be ignored, or leave" I wonder how different that is from just saying "No" when asked to fix things for the employee. I'd view that as being a terrible manager, but not as a firing.
- jlg23 11y ago
  It is not always an option to fix things for the employee and the OP did not provide enough context to judge whether this was the case here or not. And, if both parties parted as amicably as claimed by the OP, how bad can the management have been?
  - phamilton 11y ago
    My point is that this was a similar situation to what we normally write off as "bad management". I'd say OP did not follow the traditional bad manager path, and found a better approach.
    - lsc 11y ago
      >My point is that this was a similar situation to what we normally write off as "bad management" why? because there was an ultimatum? I don't really see it as bad management. Sometimes it doesn't work out, and that's fine. Sometimes a relationship that worked last year or last month doesn't work anymore... and while that's sad, it's also natural and should be okay. And sometimes, it's clear that the employee and the employer are moving in different directions. This is okay. I think that employees need to stop thinking that getting fired is the end of the world, because it puts them at a serious disadvantage. That's the thing; the negotiation doesn't end when you are done negotiating salary; and work is almost a constant negotiation. If you aren't willing to walk, or if you aren't willing to let the other guy walk, you are going to get screwed. Relationships end; it happens, be prepared for that eventuality financially and emotionally, and learn to move on.
      - lsc 11y ago
        (replying to my own comment, sorry) - Parent comment was suggesting that we would call a boss simply saying "no" to an employee asking for some change to be bad management. And that's a pretty reasonable assertion, unlike the straw man I constructed through poor reading comprehension. So the question then is "why is an ultimatum okay when just saying "no" isn't?" and that's a good question. I mean, I guess it's explaining that, you know, this is something the boss isn't going to change, that the boss would rather change the employee than change the thing the employee is asking to change. so... I guess that is better than "no" because it conveys a lot more information. I mean, you could get a similar effect, I think, without the ultimatum with a sufficient "no, and here is why:" but the ultimatum conveys more information about the employers priorities.
        phamilton 11y ago
        Yep. You pretty much answered your question. Management sometimes has to make crappy decisions. Good management is being transparent even through crappy decisions. Bad management is being opaque through the same crappy decisions.