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Thanks for posting this! This is one of my favorite articles on the web. (Doh! why didn't I think of posting it.) If only the advocates on different sides of im

Thanks for posting this! This is one of my favorite articles on the web. (Doh! why didn't I think of posting it.) If only the advocates on different sides of important issues could learn to adhere to these principles. I blame the low and ever-dropping level of journalism for the low level of political discourse today. Reporters, commentators, and moderators encourage using logical fallacies instead of calling out their use. Here's an article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saul_Alinsky http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saul_Alinsky on someone who brought the ad hominem attack to the level of genius. And of course he is widely celebrated today.

lbrandy 17y ago
> If only the advocates on different sides of important issues could learn to adhere to these principles. This is an idea better in theory, than in practice. You don't know frustration until you meet someone with poor logic skills, who drops fallacies like crazy, and then responds to your (sound) counter-arguments with 'strawman!' or 'ad-hominem!' or 'red herring!'.
- qjz 17y ago
  I agree with your base assertion fallacy.
jacobolus 17y ago
You do realize that you just straight-up insulted Alinsky without attacking any specific arguments, or presenting any evidence, right? Was that for irony?
- jackfoxy 17y ago
  Alinsky advocated the process of isolating and demonizing ideological opponents. Sorry, I thought the article included that key piece of information. It may have the last time I read it. That is a problem with presenting Wikipedia articles as evidence. They can change at any time. And, BTW, the Fallacies List article has really grown too big from what I considered its best version several years ago.
  - jerf 17y ago
    Yes, it seems to be missing the part you were looking for. It is referenced in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_for_Radicals http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_for_Radicals , which at the bottom includes the classic line "pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it." In general, as that page shows, his approach was in the end nothing more than "The ends justify the means" and the employment of logical fallacies for the consumption of the public has definitely been used by his disciples. (Yes, he writes some verbiage trying to cloak the fact that he completely believes "the ends justify the means", but in the end that's all it collapses to.)
    - anamax 17y ago
      > "The ends justify the means" Of course the ends justify the means. What else is there to justify the means? The real issue is that the means produce the ends. How often do good ends come from bad means?

lbrandy 17y ago

> If only the advocates on different sides of important issues could learn to adhere to these principles. This is an idea better in theory, than in practice. You don't know frustration until you meet someone with poor logic skills, who drops fallacies like crazy, and then responds to your (sound) counter-arguments with 'strawman!' or 'ad-hominem!' or 'red herring!'.

qjz 17y ago
I agree with your base assertion fallacy.

jacobolus 17y ago

You do realize that you just straight-up insulted Alinsky without attacking any specific arguments, or presenting any evidence, right? Was that for irony?

jackfoxy 17y ago
Alinsky advocated the process of isolating and demonizing ideological opponents. Sorry, I thought the article included that key piece of information. It may have the last time I read it. That is a problem with presenting Wikipedia articles as evidence. They can change at any time. And, BTW, the Fallacies List article has really grown too big from what I considered its best version several years ago.
- jerf 17y ago
  Yes, it seems to be missing the part you were looking for. It is referenced in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_for_Radicals http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_for_Radicals , which at the bottom includes the classic line "pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it." In general, as that page shows, his approach was in the end nothing more than "The ends justify the means" and the employment of logical fallacies for the consumption of the public has definitely been used by his disciples. (Yes, he writes some verbiage trying to cloak the fact that he completely believes "the ends justify the means", but in the end that's all it collapses to.)
  - anamax 17y ago
    > "The ends justify the means" Of course the ends justify the means. What else is there to justify the means? The real issue is that the means produce the ends. How often do good ends come from bad means?