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I've run into the sentiment you're talking about both online and IRL. It puzzles me as well. Three factors come to mind: 1. There's a deep-rooted idea today t

by apo 11y ago

I've run into the sentiment you're talking about both online and IRL. It puzzles me as well. Three factors come to mind: 1. There's a deep-rooted idea today that money comes from the government and that everything else is a scam. Bitcoin challenges that idea. 2. Bitcoin refuses to die despite the predictions of just about everyone who first learns about it. 3. The technical underpinnings of Bitcoin are counterintuitive to say the least. That makes Bitcoin hard to understand even for the technically-oriented. The combination of longevity, casual disregard for convention, and counterintuitive nature gets annoying after awhile. Nor are these factors restricted to those who can't stand Bitcoin, its users, or the idea of private money. Many of the most vocal Bitcoin advocates today went through a period of disbelief or outright hostility toward the idea.

btcprint 11y ago
To point 1. Most who don't understand bitcoin think the federal Reserve is a government agency. But these same people got (and still are) angry at the banks for their part in the great recession. If they really understood what happened in 1913 with the creation of the fed their heads would spin. Those that understand the big picture and the threat central banks pose to a nations sovereignty, and the debt slavery of its citizens, are the ones who truly appreciate bitcoin
- wyck 11y ago
  This is why many bitcoin proponents comes across as naive, broad political statements bordering on false beliefs come across as juvenile and in many cases fanatic. Stay with the facts and reality, a.k.a. the technology, statements like the above create a toxic environment in which the bitcoin community currently finds itself deeply mired in.
  - fjidodhofjf 11y ago
    How false is it criticize central bank policy? They are dragging the world into another great depression, destroying the lives of billions along the way. At some point it gets tiresome to speak with those who have no understanding of economics nor history. Can you defend the last 8 years of Central Bank policy, are you even schooled in this area of study? Your criticisms are naïve.
    - wyck 11y ago
      I will be the mature one here in hopes you understand the problem with the "bitcoin" attitude. If you want bitcoin to succeed talk about the technology and adoption, this is a complex enough topic in of itself with many real issues. The success of bitcoin depends on this 100%. If you want to talk about economic saviorism cut the bullshit, it has a nagtive effect on bitcoin. Putting people down you don't know is a sure sign of immaturity that will get you no where and you have exemplified what is wrong with the bitcoin community 2x in this very thread.
    - bildung 11y ago
      Inflation for the last decade is at a record low. http://cdn.tradingeconomics.com/embed/?s=cpi+yoy&v=201604202112n&d1=19160101&d2=20161231&h=300&w=600%27 http://cdn.tradingeconomics.com/embed/?s=cpi+yoy&v=201604202...
stegosaurus 11y ago
As I posted further down - most of the issues here seem to stem from people having this idea that in the extreme long term Bitcoin takes over the world and 'their' (as if this is some sort of holy war?) green bits of paper become firewood or something. That isn't a realistic model for how the world works and is really just an odd way of thinking. I can play Quake 3 and have fun with it, and post blogs about it, without thinking it's going to destroy every other video game out there ever, without debating whether it even is a video game, etc. Hey, it has fast inverse square root, that's cool, but it's not going to result in the actual world being deleted and exchanged for CGI VR land. Fundamentally it seems to be that there's some element of 'faith in the concept', that is turned off when it comes to money, perhaps as a protection mechanism. I don't know. ... Just chill out, you know? I might go out for a run soon. You can still walk, don't worry, it's not banned (I also walk, it's useful, maybe we can be friends?).
- pjc50 11y ago
  In the pre-Gox days of the Bitcoin subreddit you could find plenty of people advocating exactly that - that Bitcoin would make not just 'fiat' money obsolete but government itself. Any idea, good or bad, is vulnerable to being discredited by its most annoying public advocates. Bitcoin 'hate' is mostly a reaction by people who encountered this and got fed up with it. Not to mention that Bitcoin is explicitly anti-environmentalist: it's built on vast amounts of wasted electricity.
  - stegosaurus 11y ago
    >> In the pre-Gox days of the Bitcoin subreddit This is true! You don't have to agree with them, though. The network still exists and is cool and useful regardless. You don't even need to use Reddit! I don't hang out on reddit.com/r/visa (does it even exist?) >> Not to mention that Bitcoin is explicitly anti-environmentalist I think it would be fairer to say that it's 'a-environmentalist'. The badness or goodness of energy use for PoW just wasn't really a concern. When I play Quake 3, my computer uses more energy. I consider that an acceptable compromise. Perhaps there are people out there that don't, so they don't play it. I would find it quite odd if they criticized my habits, though. We should be trying to get along, not looking for chances to grumble at each other, you know?
matt4077 11y ago
...And I'm sure you thought you're writing a perfectly objective, well-argued post. However, while speculating on bc-distractors' motives, you've characterized them as naive technophobes. If someone with, let's say a doctorate in cryptography and a preference in 'fiat' reads that, he's going to feel a bit insulted and double down on his position. He may (and I'm just speculating a hypothetical here) start daydreaming about going around with a metaphorical hammer of wisdom trying to beat some ideas into every bc-daytraders' head. Like the idea that a majority of western societies actually support the general concept of democratically-elected governments wielding some power. Or that having some screws to adjust in regards to monetary policy may be preferable to not having them, some problems notwithstanding. All this is not new, by the way. This discussion lines up pretty well with the conflict over libertarianism, both demographically as well as philosophical.

by apo 11y ago

btcprint 11y ago

To point 1. Most who don't understand bitcoin think the federal Reserve is a government agency. But these same people got (and still are) angry at the banks for their part in the great recession. If they really understood what happened in 1913 with the creation of the fed their heads would spin. Those that understand the big picture and the threat central banks pose to a nations sovereignty, and the debt slavery of its citizens, are the ones who truly appreciate bitcoin

wyck 11y ago
This is why many bitcoin proponents comes across as naive, broad political statements bordering on false beliefs come across as juvenile and in many cases fanatic. Stay with the facts and reality, a.k.a. the technology, statements like the above create a toxic environment in which the bitcoin community currently finds itself deeply mired in.
- fjidodhofjf 11y ago
  How false is it criticize central bank policy? They are dragging the world into another great depression, destroying the lives of billions along the way. At some point it gets tiresome to speak with those who have no understanding of economics nor history. Can you defend the last 8 years of Central Bank policy, are you even schooled in this area of study? Your criticisms are naïve.
  - wyck 11y ago
    I will be the mature one here in hopes you understand the problem with the "bitcoin" attitude. If you want bitcoin to succeed talk about the technology and adoption, this is a complex enough topic in of itself with many real issues. The success of bitcoin depends on this 100%. If you want to talk about economic saviorism cut the bullshit, it has a nagtive effect on bitcoin. Putting people down you don't know is a sure sign of immaturity that will get you no where and you have exemplified what is wrong with the bitcoin community 2x in this very thread.
  - bildung 11y ago
    Inflation for the last decade is at a record low. http://cdn.tradingeconomics.com/embed/?s=cpi+yoy&v=201604202112n&d1=19160101&d2=20161231&h=300&w=600%27 http://cdn.tradingeconomics.com/embed/?s=cpi+yoy&v=201604202...

stegosaurus 11y ago

As I posted further down - most of the issues here seem to stem from people having this idea that in the extreme long term Bitcoin takes over the world and 'their' (as if this is some sort of holy war?) green bits of paper become firewood or something. That isn't a realistic model for how the world works and is really just an odd way of thinking. I can play Quake 3 and have fun with it, and post blogs about it, without thinking it's going to destroy every other video game out there ever, without debating whether it even is a video game, etc. Hey, it has fast inverse square root, that's cool, but it's not going to result in the actual world being deleted and exchanged for CGI VR land. Fundamentally it seems to be that there's some element of 'faith in the concept', that is turned off when it comes to money, perhaps as a protection mechanism. I don't know. ... Just chill out, you know? I might go out for a run soon. You can still walk, don't worry, it's not banned (I also walk, it's useful, maybe we can be friends?).

pjc50 11y ago
In the pre-Gox days of the Bitcoin subreddit you could find plenty of people advocating exactly that - that Bitcoin would make not just 'fiat' money obsolete but government itself. Any idea, good or bad, is vulnerable to being discredited by its most annoying public advocates. Bitcoin 'hate' is mostly a reaction by people who encountered this and got fed up with it. Not to mention that Bitcoin is explicitly anti-environmentalist: it's built on vast amounts of wasted electricity.
- stegosaurus 11y ago
  >> In the pre-Gox days of the Bitcoin subreddit This is true! You don't have to agree with them, though. The network still exists and is cool and useful regardless. You don't even need to use Reddit! I don't hang out on reddit.com/r/visa (does it even exist?) >> Not to mention that Bitcoin is explicitly anti-environmentalist I think it would be fairer to say that it's 'a-environmentalist'. The badness or goodness of energy use for PoW just wasn't really a concern. When I play Quake 3, my computer uses more energy. I consider that an acceptable compromise. Perhaps there are people out there that don't, so they don't play it. I would find it quite odd if they criticized my habits, though. We should be trying to get along, not looking for chances to grumble at each other, you know?

matt4077 11y ago

...And I'm sure you thought you're writing a perfectly objective, well-argued post. However, while speculating on bc-distractors' motives, you've characterized them as naive technophobes. If someone with, let's say a doctorate in cryptography and a preference in 'fiat' reads that, he's going to feel a bit insulted and double down on his position. He may (and I'm just speculating a hypothetical here) start daydreaming about going around with a metaphorical hammer of wisdom trying to beat some ideas into every bc-daytraders' head. Like the idea that a majority of western societies actually support the general concept of democratically-elected governments wielding some power. Or that having some screws to adjust in regards to monetary policy may be preferable to not having them, some problems notwithstanding. All this is not new, by the way. This discussion lines up pretty well with the conflict over libertarianism, both demographically as well as philosophical.